My Idea of Fun: An Impromptu, Three-Hour Discourse with a Creationist

(A quick side note about all of the names in the post: I'm terrible at names, and I can't really remember anyone's just yet. So they're probably wrong, or attributed to the wrong people. I might go back and fix them once I find out the actual names.)

Sorry for the delay in posting this. At first I was just going to take a small break over the weekend, then I caught the bug that was going around while at the local church picnic. (Apparently, that blessing of the food didn't do too much.) So if most of this doesn't make sense, it's because I'm still a little under the weather, and all of this happened at least a week or so ago.

For those of you wondering why I was at a church picnic, my mom is a youth minister, and I always try to help her out with this sort of stuff. It's mostly just because they need someone to do heavy lifting. But it's also partly so I can try and inject a little skepticism into the lessons when appropriate.

But before all that, a week or so ago, I was at the college.
I had just finished a math test and, feeling I needed a sugar fix to boost my spirits, I went towards the cafeteria to raid the vending machine.
I was about to get something, when one of the Apologetics, I think it was Joy (the girl who had originally solicited for me to come to the meetings) came up to me and said that she and Daniel were sitting at a table and they would like to talk to me some more about religion.
Being the intellectual masochist that I am, I agreed, but not before getting a water and some Starbursts, if only to give my hands something to do during the talk.

We sat down, and Daniel immediately jumped in, asking me to try and point out some more of the contradictions that I had found in the Bible. I would find this to be a pretty common trait with him: he would latch on to things that were sure to only bring up controversy or which would start an argument.

Some how, Joy managed to get onto the topic of the Big Bang and, despite admittedly not knowing much about it, I decided to go ahead and talk about it.
Or, rather, go ahead and let them talk about it. I wanted to try and let Joy talk and say her whole argument before refuting anything. However, she wasn't really presenting an argument. It felt more like she was just trying to give me a pseudo-science lesson.
Admittedly, I did like how she never really seemed to dispute the claim of the Big Bang, and it was even key in most of her arguments. However, where she failed was in assuming that there couldn't have been a time before the Big Bang, and that only something larger than it, i.e., God, could have started it all.
When I asked her why it had to be a god that started the Big Bang, let alone the Judeo-Christian 'God', she simply reiterated her argument. Changing around the layout of the argument doesn't mean it isn't still a bad argument.

We stayed on the Big Bang for far longer than we should have. I didn't know enough to want to argue about it, and she was just going in circles. There was a moment where evolution popped into the conversation, at which point I heard Daniel, sitting out of my current line of sight, say, "Evolution is a lie".
Since we weren't really talking about evolution at the moment, I just ignored the question. I'm not sure if this annoyed Daniel or not, but I do know that this will likely be out next discussion topic.

Soon, Daniel had to leave, and it was only Joy and myself.
We had some how managed to get onto the topic of sin. From here, it seemed to be only a short skip, hop and a jump to the inevitable topic of homosexuality. Again, unsurprisingly, we came up on opposite sides of the argument.

As a conservative Christian, following everything the Bible says to a 'T', Joy was commanded by her religion to be opposed to homosexuality.
Similarly, as a recovering Catholic, ex-Republican, Bleeding-Heart Liberal, I was required by law to support gays and their marriages.

Of course, that last paragraph was a complete satirization of our actual motivations.

I support gays and their marriages, partly because I'm a decent human being who believes in equal rights for all, and partly because I'm a pansexual-questioning youth and have some stake in the matters.

Joy demotes and demonizes gays and marriage for the same reason she doesn't support anything else: somewhere in the Bible, she found a cryptic passage which, when read from the proper version of the Bible (preferable King James Version) and when taking into her own personal, self-imposed context, and when squinting her eyes just right, it seems to say that Sodom and Gomorra was about homosexuality.

We talked about this for pretty much the majority of the conversation. When she actually did bring up Sodom and Gomorra, I brought up the difference between sex and rape. Sex is for pleasure and the sharing of emotions, rape is for dominance and control.
She never could get that one figured out, so we eventually moved on to marriage.

This was definitely one of the highlights of the talk, as Joy started to show her true colors.

At one point, Joy was arguing that all gay people are evil sinners, but while refusing to fall into the trap of saying it's a choice (she never came right out and said it; only implied it. and I had a great come back, too!).
Finally, I asked this:

ME: What if Jesus were gay?
JOY (Matter-of-factly): Jesus wasn't gay.
M: But what if he was?
J: There no way he could be gay.
M: I don't know; he hangs out with a bunch of other guys all the time, some of which he openly said he loved. He never even had a wife, unless you count Mary Magdalene
J (Now clearly upset and flustered): Jesus was never married to Mary. That's a story.
M: I know, sound's kind of gay, don't you think?

I got a big kick out of that.

So, I asked Joy, if same-sex marriage isn't okay, what kinds of marriage is okay?
Joy said ones which were ordained by God.
So, I asked, "What about polygamy"? That's in the Bible, too, you know.

She said, and I am not making this up (just paraphrasing) "That's fine."
"Polygamy is okay, so long as the husband and the wives are both agreeing to it, and they can handle it."

I was pretty taken aback by that.

So, by now it had boiled down to this with Joy: Gay marriage is wrong. One of the reasons why is because they can't make babies.
Polygamy is fine too.

So, I had to ask, "What if there's two gay guys, and a chick acting as a surrogate? They're still capable of making a baby, and since you said polygamy is okay, it's still a (pretty much) opposite-sex marriage.
Joy says: No, because they're still gay.

There's just no winning with these people.

There were more words exchanged, like on how schools aren't trying to indoctrinate kids just because the (gasp!) have books that mention that some the fact that some kids have gay parents. (Oh, the horror! Acknowledging reality! Won't someone think of the children?!??) (Also, I've always found if very ironic and annoying as hell that Christians tell people we're indoctrinating their kids, when it's them who are trying to indoctrinate the whole damn world.)
But, just like when explaining what rape is, it seemed like all of this just went right over her head. She just refused to take into consideration what I had to say. And why should she, when she already has all of the answers she'll ever need, right there in that leather-bound rolling-paper.
So, we called it a day, before suddenly realizing this little talk had turned into a three-hour debate.

This was easily the most irritating, and the most fun, talk I've had in a long while, with anyone. There's really too much to talk about, and too much that I only remember parts of, and so I couldn't fit it in.
One such part is when we were talking about homosexuality.
Joy was tip-toeing around the topic of sex, being the good neo-puritan that she is.
At one point she said, "I don't want to say this, because I don't like talking about this in mixed company.
I quickly shot back with, (essentially) "Well, I don't really mind, so let me explain all the workings of homo- and hetero-sexual sex to you."
I then proceeded to explain to this good little Christian how similar the relation to the penis and the g-spot in a woman is to the relation to the penis and the prostate in a man.
That was fun, because we had both been awkwardly hinting at things the whole time, before I finally realized that to have a conversation like this, I just needed to put on my Big Boy pants and start using actual words, rather than just euphemisms.

Anyway, that's about all I can remember. I mean, I could write a whole post on each of the talking points I brought up, let alone the topics themselves.
But at least now I'm caught up and my blog is even with the conversations I've had. From now on, I'm going to start taking a pen and pad with me everywhere, and take down people's names, and take some good notes and actual quotes.

Next time: I'll likely just post about something random that's on my mind, unless I have another close encounter of the Apologetic kind.

Views: 53

Comment by Briana on September 29, 2009 at 6:41pm
You know, I totally agree with what you're saying about these kinds of discussions being both aggravating and interesting at the same time. You're lucky you know people who actually want to talk about it ;)


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