Hello eveyone,


I've recently became a vegetarian. Besides the reason for animals' suffering and pain, it is healthy and good for the environment. I really feel that our world is overwhelmed with a lot of crazy stuff and I am really happy that I made this decision.


As a mathematician and,therefore, a scientist, I was faced with the problem of using animals in scientific research. I read lots of articles about this issue and most of the reasons against the use of animals in scientific research were  that a small percentage of animals are used in scientific research and it turned out that it was useless later [ 90 percent of medications approved for human use after animal testing later proved ineffective or harmful to humans in clinical trials. ].


I am confused between the intellectual/scientific curiosity and obligation, and moral duties towards our fellow eathlings.


I would pretty much appreciate any comment!





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I would also like to add that most of the reasons agains using animals in research are not basic. I mean that the reasons are said or stated after using animals in research. It's like not suppoting this issue after doing it. I am looking for reasons that doesn't support the use of animals before using animals in research.

well since you've "recently become a vegatarian" ... and since you're a mathematician/scientist and you have a tendency to "think" ... I give you about six months and you'll be a vegan


you won't be confused long between "the intellecutal ... moral duties towards ... "


Sir Paul McCartney said about the whales ... "why can't we just leave them alone"


My haunting expericence for "animal testing", was the tipping point for me in my early 20's, a friend of mine worked for "*********** corporation" and he took me into the plant after hours to show me something ... what it was ... was this hundreds upon hundreds of cats kept in cages, stacked eight high one on top of another, they tested new food on ... the sound of hundred of cats meowing is something I con't get out of my head to this day ... some had essentially lost their minds from being kept for years upon years ... no daylight, no exercise, no peace, no quiet, no mercy ...


moral duties ... the answer is obvious to me



I completely understand, this is obvious for me too. I am actually pretty sure that most coorporations nowadays are like this which is very disgusting. But, let's just take a hypothetical case.


Have you seen the movie "The Fountain"? This theme of the movie is very far from the issue we're discussing here. But, I am just gonna take it as an example.  In this movie, a doctor was testing some stuff on one monkey. My point is that, if there is one monkey and if I want to test some stuff on it, I will be faced with a dilemma : THe Scientific curiosity vs the moral duty towards the animal. There are two choices here. Which one will you choose ? To accept that you're a scientist and you're testing some stuff in the name of science or to return to the basic idea that we're both earthlings. The dilemma here is on the very basic level. 

Ok, for this discussion I'll attempt to become a scientist, but I'm going to retain my buddhist beliefs, although I'm an agnostic buddhist ... I'll return to this discussion ... I actually have to go take my dad to lunch ... do a few things around the house, prepare a few vegan sandwichs and then go climb a mountain this evening and have dinner on top of Mt Hollywood ... I live in Los Angeles ... the vegetarian/vegan hiking group here has over 1,000 members ... I'll get back to you ... this should be a great thread, I hope more people join in ... steve

It would be far more useful to use humans as research "models" (doesn't that sound nice, can't you see them preening on the runway?) Why not? Because it is harmfully exploiting one individual for the benefit of a more powerful individual. It's the same reason we should not use other animals. Selfishness, arrogance, and cruelty.
I agree with you. It is actually mroe fair and makes more sense to use humans instead of animals for the same reason you stated [harmfully exploiting one individual for the benefit of a more powerful individual - i.e. being a speciest ]. But, even if we use humans in our research, wouldn't there also be a dilemma ? Moreover, is it possible to find humans willing to risk their lives for the sake of all humans? I don't think so. That's why we're actually using animals in scientific research; because they don't have a say in this. We're exploiting them, obviously, by force. I actually don't think it's necessary to use animals in research. It's more useful and beneficial, but definitely not necessary. Thank you very much for you comment =).
My opinion is that if it cannot be shown to be necessary, and I mean really justifiable in the sense of serving some great good, then no. It's torture and it's wrong.

I've actually read the first article about chimps!! It's very true. I am currently reading the second article.


I agree with you on testing vanity and household products on animals is too much, I understand all of these other stuff. My problem is on the very basic level. But, I think you gave a plausible answer concerning the mentality of scientists. This is very true. Humans, in general, and scientists,  in particular, are blind exploiters and don't know when to stop especially when they get what they want. They always want more, and when they want more, they act crazy focusing on their purpose and forgetting anything else.


In your last question, if you mean using convicted serial killers in research instead of animals, then it's beneficial for sure [ any testing is beneficial, the problem is with the other part ], but I am not sure if it's right or wrong. Don't forget that people can change. 

I support the cause

If it's not okay to use animals in scientific research, is it okay for people to use them to feed themselves milk or eggs?  In either case, the animal is being exploited for something that is desired but not needed by humans.

I've taken a poll.  The vast majority of cows and chickens, voted that they prefer not. Does that answer this question for good?  The other animals would rather humans did not USE them.


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