Libertarians would stand by and watch someone die rather than help someone caught in a bad spot. I suppose if someone gets a flat tire and they need a jack you'd laugh and drive off?

Views: 570

Comment by Arcus on September 16, 2011 at 2:44pm

@Anon: I believe the question was to provide rational arguments for health care. I've provided a list, unfortunately completely explaining them would take a few years in a higher educational institutions.

Please provide me rational explanations why every other first world country has one. Are they all just bonkers?

Comment by Anonymous on September 16, 2011 at 2:57pm

Please provide me rational explanations why every other first world country has one. Are they all just bonkers?

@Arcus, I'll be happy to compromise by answering your question if you agree to answer mine.

"Who is responsible for my choices?"


Comment by Anonymous on September 16, 2011 at 2:59pm

I did ask first :)

Comment by Arcus on September 16, 2011 at 2:59pm

"Who is responsible for my choices?"

1. You (mostly, depending on inherited and environmental factors.)

2. It's a fallacious argument.

Now, go on...

Comment by Robert Karp on September 16, 2011 at 3:41pm
Comment by Arcus on September 16, 2011 at 3:50pm

@Robert: As much as I feel a sympathy for the libertarian cause, especially cheering for the little guy, I quite don't get cheering for cancer. OK, it's tiny and all, but my sympathy for the little guy stops at around newborn size, and I don't quite extend it to metastasized lumps of cells.

And there's a new season of The Closer started?! I love that show! ;)

Comment by Robert Karp on September 16, 2011 at 4:29pm

But most people stay in Kris? Even if they are healthy? Is this because they might one day get sick or they just actually like society?

Comment by Gaytor on September 16, 2011 at 6:33pm

You can't use logical rational arguments with people that are emotionally tied to their beliefs.

Brady, if you present a logical argument, you'll be heard. The argument that I want my freedom my way, while living in a democratic society, is not based in logic. The claim that our healthcare is superior to others even though the WHO ranks it as 37th in the world is not logical. Not to mention that we don't have the longest lifespan or lowest infant mortality rate and have many other issues. I've laid out point after point of fact that hasn't been answered by Anonymous or yourself. How is it that you feel that you have put forth a logical argument akin to religion versus Atheism when I'm the one spouting demonstrable fact and you are not addressing those points with anything but emotional argument? 

Comment by Brady on September 16, 2011 at 7:19pm

@gaytor I can see that those are good valid points. I am not disputing that. What I am saying is that we have a group saying what should be done in the interest of all mankind. I can agree with nearly every point of why health care should be free.

I am just posing the argument that it is an ideology to say that any one way of life is the right way of life. My position is not firmly for or against. Ron Paul is simply stating that the guy made a choice to avoid paying for insurance when he could afford it. That is an appeal to emotion. There was no right way to answer it. He could have said, "We should have had a single payer system in place and things like that would never happen" However, what is the point? Address the problem, irresponsibility in America. I was unemployed when I got out of the military and my health benefits ran out after a few years. Guess what I did! I bought Blue Cross and got covered. It was like $150 for 2 people. That is way more important than a cell phone, HDTV, cable, internet, and starbucks. Never did I have a break in coverage.

Giving more stuff away for free will not solve the problem of personal irresponsibility. So, asking the government to chip in when a willing and capable person avoided responsibility was a red herring and an appeal to emotion fallacy. You should have known that when you posted this video.


Comment by Anonymous on September 16, 2011 at 8:04pm

"Who is responsible for my choices?"

1. You (mostly, depending on inherited and environmental factors.)

2. It's a fallacious argument.


Thanks. I am not sure where you get "mostly" from though. I am hoping you can expound.   And what argumet is fallacious? Your answer or the question? After reviewing the rules of logic, I don't see how the question is fallacious. Could you please expound on this too? 

Please provide me rational explanations why every other first world country has one. Are they all just bonkers?

I don't believe they are bonkers, I believe they are doing the best they can in establishing peaceful and productive societies, albeit, limited by their society's collective intellect.


I believe by respecting, not assuming, ones personal responsibility for one's choices provides a better environment for one to become independent.  I believe that independence is a required step before you can become interdependent. I believe charity is better enacted by a collection of interdependent individuals.  I believe a charity can provide more utility by including education on how one can take more responsibility for themselves.


I know it is one case study, but let me give you at least an illustration.  I was approached by Andy, a homeless man asking for help in the form of cash.  My first thought was, if I give this guy money I'll just be encouraging his dependence. Then it hit me, I actually had an opportunity to at least try to help this man.  I gave him $10, but told him that I didn't believe it will be any help for him. Sure it would pacify him for a few hours but the help he needs no person can give to him accept himself. Because I stayed with him through the meal and I gave him another ride to his next destination I had the opportunity to give him some free advice, in which he seemed to be very interested in. I tried my best to give him simple ideas and ways to take responsibility for himself. He was excited and full of hope. I gave him my business card and a $10 business loan to help him accomplish his customized plan.


If you wish, I'll look for scientific studies that evaluate the effects of promoting ones sense of personal responsibility vs assuming ones personal responsibility.  Not sure if these are studies that have been done, the outcomes seem obvious to me though.  Even if a study like this has not been done, it shouldn't be hard to set up a scientific study.


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