Comment by kris feenstra on September 13, 2011 at 2:30am

He's quit the site.  I don't think he will see any further responses to the conversation.

Comment by Jacob LeMaster on September 13, 2011 at 2:36am

Lame.. when did people stop having conviction..

Comment by Jacob LeMaster on September 13, 2011 at 2:41am

For those of you who have missed out of the conversation.. Here is what is missing.. in chronological order..

 

Gerald Martinez commented on your video "Fuck 9/11! Get Over It Already!" on Think Atheist

------------
I'm a new member, and as much as I am an atheist, I would love to punch this guy on the face.  I am an American service member serving in Kuwait while punks like this guy have never served a day.  I have served in the US Air Force 20 years now and let me tell you, there is a big fucking difference between 9/11 and any other death you idiot.  The difference is that we are in an asymmetric war where an ideology is trying to kill YOU IDIOT!  And YOU too reading this, because you drive a car and YOU WOMAN, because you went to school.  I fight this war every day.  And I have seen many soldiers fall in battle and parade in a coffin in Afghanistan on the way to parents in some small county in America.  How about remembering that on 9/11?? No Sir, we should never forget, and we should never stop playing these images on 9/11 so that people like you remember that you are alive and talking shit filling your mouth with freedom because of people like ME fighting a war against an ideology that wants to eradicate you.  The day we forget is the day these terrorists blow up your son's yellow school buy on his way to school.  Or the day the Jets vs. Cowboys game turns into a ball of fire and a bloody stampede of people without memory.  So fuck off die with no one at your funeral because they forgot about your stupid rant.

 

Gerald Martinez commented on your video "Fuck 9/11! Get Over It Already!" on Think Atheist

------------

@ Jacob, patriotism is not an archaic term just because of globalism.  Patriotism is a very alive Maslow sense of belonging kind of thing and if you think that it is obsolete, I hope you do not live in the US or if you do, move out because I'd hate to be defending you. Patriotism does not ever disapear, it may morph, but the sense of pride and belonging still remains. Take Italy before Garibaldi...people resisted unification, but the do love their flag today.  It is no different today.
 
@Kim, as a prior enlisted and now officer, I can tell you that not one person I work with views any Afghan or Iraqi as any less of a person...except maybe a few red necks that have no business being in the military.  In fact, In Afghanistan, most troops loved giving candy and all the stuff out of care packages to Afghan children on the other side of the fence.  I made many lasting friendships with Afghans and learned a lot about their culture.  And I don't like war and yes I do think that Iraq was unjustified and wrong, but we live in a democracy, like it or not.  It may not be perfect, but we do get to vote, and we have to live with decisions made above us as they do represent the vote of the majority, and if we don't like it we get to vote again. 
And as for killing 8 innocent people to capture two...it depends.  If they are hiding a nuclear bomb that sits somewhere in NY, then yes, kill 100 innocent civilians if you will save 1 million.  Sorry but I do watch 24 with a passion for what people like Jack Bauer does.  Point is, actions should be for the common good and sometimes tough decisions must be made.  If people knew how seriously and how badly we try to avoid civilian casualties in Afghanistan or anywhere else for that matter, they would see that we really try.  And it is unfortunate when it happens.
@ Kris, sure we could have spent the money more wisely, like feeding all of Africa for a whole year sot aht we can keep feeding them for generations while the men keep raping their own kind.  But you statement is as silly as that Italian guy in Italy who told me that "We don't need NATO because they have never been involved in anything to defend us and all of Europe is peaceful now." My answer to that Ass-wipe was: S

Comment by Jacob LeMaster on September 13, 2011 at 2:42am

So, is it safe just because or maybe NATO had something to do with it to begin with? In your case, sure, we fed all of Africa and we still have radical Muslims coming after us.  What If we Americans could not ever travel around the world because every time we went to a hotel we got bombed by someone.  What if you could walk through the airport without any inspections to your bags, would you still fly? This is an asymmetric WAR and if you don't understand that term, I am truly sorry for plain ignorance.  We must identify terrorists, hunt them down, and kill them like roaches.  Forget the cost, because we cannot afford not to.
Having said that: these wars do spend a lot of $$ unnecessarily...gosh don't I know this: we employ a gazillion Hindu/Indians here in Kuwait, so your taxpayer money goes to feed families in India while our folks back at home are jobless...so there, cut us back, I won't mind since I will spend time with my son...for a change.

 

Gerald Martinez commented on your video "Fuck 9/11! Get Over It Already!" on Think Atheist

------------
Well you should go to the "anti-patriotism" website but here you're alienating people like me.  Let me tell you what patriotism means to me. You see, I don't take the US for granted.  I was born in Iowa and grew up in Argentina, where I defended the fact that I was born in the US while in school.  I had friends who trashed and would provoke me saying that the Russians would kick our asses and I defended this country with teeth and nails. I have witnessed and lived in anti-Americanism all my life until I was 18.  When I made my own decision to come back out of pure love, I went to a ball game, and it was the first time I had ever put my right hand on my heart when the national anthem played.  Chills still run through my body when I hear the anthem.  Patriotism is very alive, from the guy who came to the USO and said "troops, I salute you" to the ladies that worked making videos of troops reading a book for their children and later sent book and DVD.  Patriotism lives in towns all over America where coffins arrive from the sand and people, strangers, line up on the sides of the street. Patriotism lives in China, where they see the day they can say "we are better than Americans" and that day my friend is coming and then what.  What will you say when bombs rain down on you? What did the non-patriotic British say when bombs rained down on them? or the non-patriotic French when German tanks rolled down Champs Elysees?? YOU ARE WRONG, religion is just one small facet of patriotism.  Patriotism is a set of rules, customs, culture, traditions, and history that unite a people.  I say this without a dictionary. I don't need one, my heart is speaking.  You are wrong and you have no way to prove your concept while I do, I have right here.  You might be very educated, but culture you show none.  It shows you need to get out more.  Visit a school one day, visit a military cemetery, visit a stadium when the national anthem is played, visit ground zero...and you will see patriotism, like it or not. 
Our country is not perfect, far from it.  Politicians are corrupt, lobbyists run it, corporations are ponzi schemes, our schools are suffering and our education lacks the one I got in a 3rd world country, so does engineering and medical fields...but you know what...I still take it before any other country.  Why? because I don't take it fro granted like you do. I worked hard to get where I am, and I was provided opportunities that no other country will give you.
Tell me that there is no patriotism in the US and I will tell you that you are wrong and that you belong elsewhere where you have no opportunities...then my friend, maybe you will feel a little more patriotic.

Comment by Jacob LeMaster on September 13, 2011 at 2:43am

Gerald Martinez commented on your video "Fuck 9/11! Get Over It Already!" on Think Atheist

------------
@ Jacob: -Your patriotism sounds almost exactly like Cultural Zionism by your personal definition.- That is retarded and short sighted.  No one is talking about Zionism.  You can group any bunch of pricks into Patriotic elitist movement.  Don't try to use non-sequitur fallacies on me.  By the way, I fully support a Palestinian state...
Now drop your back and forth battle of wits, understand that I am not trying to convince you and stop trying to school me as if I am your little naive student. You go on your atheist anti-patriotic self-indulgent kind of life.
 
Look, @Epicuresfan88 Patriotism comes from the word Patria, which very different that "Nation." It just happened that in Shakespearean English there was no such word as Patriotism, so he (someone) imported Patriotism without Patria because Patria is homeland.  So loving one's homeland should not be such ugly or elitist view.  Why do you guys think that for any soccer player the World Cup is such great honor? Because players play as a country, they represent and yes, they use symbolism such as flags to identify.  Why is this so wrong? 
People like to identify themselves as part of groups, this is human nature and as long as your right ends where mine begins it is all good.  Call it the Miami Dolphins, the NY Metz, The BMW lovers, the Pastafarinians...we all like to identify and homeland is the first identity we have after your last name.  In fact, in ancient times your place of birth would also identify your name...it is part of who we are. Leonardo Da Vinci really was born in Vinci...and I'm sure his parents were proud people.  Nothing wrong with pride either.

Comment by Seth on September 13, 2011 at 11:29am

Seems like some of the people that are angry over this video didn't listen to it all the way or don't think death matters unless they are American lol

"If you're comparing the death of millions of people who die from disease and illness, to the mass murder of 9/11 you're a fucking douche-bag."

Yet they ignore all the people we've killed that was mass murder as well or I guess they think innocent civilians should die in our wars and it doesn't make a difference because they aren't American?

"Seriously, go explain your agreement with the little girl that lost her dad or the mother that lost her son or any family of the 2900+ victims and see if you don't feel like a total jerk."

They should go to Iraq and tell that to the hundreds of thousands of kids that don't have entire families if they are even alive anymore or the victims of Hiroshima, Vietnam or any other major war the US has been in.  Our killing of civilians isn't the same because these people aren't American so that is okay to some of you?

Comment by Nina van der Roos on September 18, 2011 at 8:44am

 

Normally I try not to get pulled into Sassan’s nationalistic ramblings but this was really too much to swallow.
 
He wrote:-
It is really disheartening that it seems like a portion of atheists are the type who claim they value rationality and reason - but in reality, are often times more irrational than religious people themselves. We were attacked on 9/11 - in an unprovoked
 
Response: Not unprovoked, it was provoked by the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, by America financing of the Israeli state and military, by American Imperialism in the Middle east and injustice.
 
attack from an enemy who wants to bring down humanity. After 9/11 - terrorist attacks followed in countries ranging from India, Spain, England, and countless of other nations for the simple reason for being westerners and non-Muslims (and in the case of India, for being polytheists since polytheists are the worst form of "creature" and they all deserve to die as accorded by the quran). For once - look at yourselves in the mirror and just think in your puny heads; not only was America attacked on 9/11 but the entire civilized world was attacked.
Response: No it was not, each of these attacks have been by various splinter groups with a loose association to a terrorist centre, but each had slightly varying justifications. As long as we keep ignoring the detail of each attacks justification and lumping them all in together as one we will fail to address the root causes.

When we were attacked, civilization was attacked.
Response: America is not and nor has it ever been, the sole leg of civilisation, get over yourself.

Now, we can argue the merits of the Iraq war and deserving so - but protecting our homeland and going after the terrorists and getting rid of the Taliban was not only necessary since the Taliban was harboring Bin Laden and Al Qaeda -
Response: After a week of debilitating strikes at targets across Afghanistan that killed considerable numbers of civilians, the Taliban twice offerred (by Haji Abdul Kabir, the Taliban's deputy prime minister) to hand over Osama bin Laden, only to be rejected by President Bush. They asked two very reasonable things, firstly the strikes against their sovereign country which had itself made no act of war against America stop and that the USA show their evidence against Bin Laden for his participation in 9/11. Presenting a prima-facia case prior to extradition of a criminal suspect is normal and absolutely reasonable as practiced by every one of the “civilised” countries you so often refer to. The Taliban offered a reasonable and peaceful solution but Bush refused and continued to prosecute his war, how do you think that played to Muslim audiances ?

but in addition, it was an imperative of the world community in getting rid of the most brutal oppressors on the face of this Earth.
Response: Yes, the Taliban were a most disagreeable regime, especially for my fellow women, but they were not alone. The tribes and warlords used by the USA to help invade Afghanistan were every bit as awful and abusive of women and human rights, they continue to be so even today but that did not stop American leaping into bed with them. While I was doing my tour in Afgahnistan and doing the medical outreach work for local communities I was surprised to find our protection personnel withdrawn because they were needed for a higher priority assignment. Imagine my surprise when I learnt that they had been
Imagine my surprise when I learnt that they had been taken to protect US Geological Survey (USGS) teams doing mineral surveys. I think that showed the true priorities very nicely !
 
The fact that thousands of our troops have sacrificed their lives - is an honor, not something to smug at.
 Response: I am a serving career military officer, (medical services), but I have served in that idiocy of Iraq and Afghanistan. If I had been killed when I was mined I can assure you that my last thoughts would have nothing to do with Queen & Country so my death would not have been a S2acrifice” for them or democracy, it would have been just another sad, pointless death and I would bitterly hate if my death had been lionised as a “sacrifice for Queen/Country/Democracy”.  

We learned our lesson from leaving Afghanistan after the Soviet war - and we have not made that same mistake again.
Response: You learned NOTHING. You just repeated the mistakes of the Russians. Military force does not ultimately work, it is a brief solution, but has as much negative effect as positive and the longer you use it the more any potential return diminishes - read history for fucks sake Sassan !. If just one tenth of the current US military spending had been put into some really clever - non-military thinking you would have acheived more. Sadly the vast military-industrial complex are earning way too much to allow for truly creative thinking.

The fact remains - that 9/11 changed the world
Response: No, it certainly changed america, that is not the same thing as the world despite what america might like to think, and now as a result of america’s chosen course america’s influence and credibility is vastly deminished.

and changed humanity - and we should be proud of our ideals and values in supporting freedom
Response: You lock up people for years without trial, torture them, kidnap them - that is not “supporting freedom” it is damaging it, and worse you have handed the likes of the Taliban the evidence they need to help recruit, you are in effect support terrorism by your hypocrisy  

and democratic change as long as it is the sort of “democratic” government that america wants, that is to say one that allows american corporations in to ass-rape the people of that country in gratitude for Americas help. Just ask the likes of Iraqi farmers who no longer own the seeds they plant crops with!. -

war is never perfect and mistakes surely happen
Response: 9/11 killed 2,800 but the upshot is that the 9/11 decade not only killed 1000s times more Middle Eastern or Muslim people than were killed on 9/11. It also cemented the ties between democratically-elected Western leaders and some of the worst ruling elites in the Arab region: Gaddafi, Ben Ali, Mubarak, Dahlan, Saif al-Islam. Fake democrats kept this great company of autocrats and demagogues in power.

but the world is a better and safer place today than it was 10-years ago.
Response: Safer for who exactly ? Safer for americans, “protected” by your burgeoning security services, caccooned as you are behind borders that are swiftly becoming prison walls ? Safer for those unfortunate enough to be under yo
but the world is a better and safer place today than it was 10-years ago.
Response: Safer for who exactly ? Safer for americans, “protected” by your burgeoning security services, caccooned as you are behind borders that are swiftly becoming prison walls ? Safer for those unfortunate enough to be under your bombers and drones? Safer for those condemmed to breath the dust left by the america weapon of mass destruction (depleted uranium), shredding the genes of children yet to come ? Just how high a price does the world have to pay for the safety of american citizens ?
The events of 9/11 tragic as they were have affected Arabs in a big way. I have no love at all for the arab world or islam but even I can see that In the Arab world the American security agenda has interfered with Arab development and the creation of common markets, communities and networks of exchange. Arabs were are now unable to travel freely in a vast area of nearly 7 million square kilometres. 9/11 meant the closure of mosques outside prayer times. Prayer itself almost became a crime because of the constructed association with terrorism. Fluidity, borderlessness, and networks of self-help and mutuality have all been vandalised since the beginning of the 9/11 decade. The tradition of sadaqa, voluntary alms-giving, is now policed. The US FBI and CIA regulates how this is done, and in every Arab state, sending money to loved ones has become a nightmare. Hawala, the money transfers many Muslims depend on for sending remittances, has been almost criminalised. How Muslims spend their private money, and to whom they send it, is all implicated in the 9/11 puzzle. This must all be seen in the light of he US' status as a colonial and imperialist power, and a power that has aggravated by its moral failure in the region by its totally inept handling of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Israel does not only kill with American support, hardware and approval, but is also implicated in crimes and human rights abuses.  Its fight against Hamas and Hezbollah during the 9/11 decade have surpassed all reasonable and proportionate rules of military engagement and now America has followed their satellites example and is employing their same principles of abandoning reasonable and proportionate rules of military engagement.
 
The real enemy is hatred, distrust, and misunderstanding. It is a myth to think that hard power alone defends nation-states in the modern world, what makes people turn to violence more often than not starts with injustice - no where is this more manifest than the injustice of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, if that had been settled 20 years ago America would not now being bled dry on a course doomed to failure.
Comment by Nina van der Roos on September 18, 2011 at 8:50am

Response PART 2 to Sassan's idiocy as some of the first part seems to have been cut off.

 

Response cont:

Imagine my surprise when I learnt that they had been taken to protect US Geological Survey (USGS) teams doing mineral surveys. I think that showed the true priorities very nicely !
 
The fact that thousands of our troops have sacrificed their lives - is an honor, not something to smug at.
 Response: I am a serving career military officer, (medical services), but I have served in that idiocy of Iraq and Afghanistan. If I had been killed when I was mined I can assure you that my last thoughts would have nothing to do with Queen & Country so my death would not have been a S2acrifice” for them or democracy, it would have been just another sad, pointless death and I would bitterly hate if my death had been lionised as a “sacrifice for Queen/Country/Democracy”.  

We learned our lesson from leaving Afghanistan after the Soviet war - and we have not made that same mistake again.
Response: You learned NOTHING. You just repeated the mistakes of the Russians. Military force does not ultimately work, it is a brief solution, but has as much negative effect as positive and the longer you use it the more any potential return diminishes - read history for fucks sake Sassan !. If just one tenth of the current US military spending had been put into some really clever - non-military thinking you would have acheived more. Sadly the vast military-industrial complex are earning way too much to allow for truly creative thinking.

The fact remains - that 9/11 changed the world
Response: No, it certainly changed america, that is not the same thing as the world despite what america might like to think, and now as a result of america’s chosen course america’s influence and credibility is vastly deminished.

and changed humanity - and we should be proud of our ideals and values in supporting freedom
Response: You lock up people for years without trial, torture them, kidnap them - that is not “supporting freedom” it is damaging it, and worse you have handed the likes of the Taliban the evidence they need to help recruit, you are in effect support terrorism by your hypocrisy  

and democratic change as long as it is the sort of “democratic” government that america wants, that is to say one that allows american corporations in to ass-rape the people of that country in gratitude for Americas help. Just ask the likes of Iraqi farmers who no longer own the seeds they plant crops with!. -

war is never perfect and mistakes surely happen
Response: 9/11 killed 2,800 but the upshot is that the 9/11 decade not only killed 1000s times more Middle Eastern or Muslim people than were killed on 9/11. It also cemented the ties between democratically-elected Western leaders and some of the worst ruling elites in the Arab region: Gaddafi, Ben Ali, Mubarak, Dahlan, Saif al-Islam. Fake democrats kept this great company of autocrats and demagogues in power.

but the world is a better and safer place today than it was 10-years ago.
Response: Safer for who exactly ? Safer for americans, “protected” by your burgeoning security services, caccooned as you are behind borders that are swiftly becoming prison walls ? Safer for those unfortunate enough to be under yo
Comment by Nina van der Roos on September 18, 2011 at 8:56am

Response PART 3 to Sassan's idiocy as some of it has been cut off.

 

but the world is a better and safer place today than it was 10-years ago.
Response: Safer for who exactly ? Safer for americans, “protected” by your burgeoning security services, caccooned as you are behind borders that are swiftly becoming prison walls ? Safer for those unfortunate enough to be under your bombers and drones? Safer for those condemmed to breath the dust left by the america weapon of mass destruction (depleted uranium), shredding the genes of children yet to come ? Just how high a price does the world have to pay for the safety of american citizens ?
The events of 9/11 tragic as they were have affected Arabs in a big way. I have no love at all for the arab world or islam but even I can see that In the Arab world the American security agenda has interfered with Arab development and the creation of common markets, communities and networks of exchange. Arabs were are now unable to travel freely in a vast area of nearly 7 million square kilometres. 9/11 meant the closure of mosques outside prayer times. Prayer itself almost became a crime because of the constructed association with terrorism. Fluidity, borderlessness, and networks of self-help and mutuality have all been vandalised since the beginning of the 9/11 decade. The tradition of sadaqa, voluntary alms-giving, is now policed. The US FBI and CIA regulates how this is done, and in every Arab state, sending money to loved ones has become a nightmare. Hawala, the money transfers many Muslims depend on for sending remittances, has been almost criminalised. How Muslims spend their private money, and to whom they send it, is all implicated in the 9/11 puzzle. This must all be seen in the light of he US' status as a colonial and imperialist power, and a power that has aggravated by its moral failure in the region by its totally inept handling of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Israel does not only kill with American support, hardware and approval, but is also implicated in crimes and human rights abuses.  Its fight against Hamas and Hezbollah during the 9/11 decade have surpassed all reasonable and proportionate rules of military engagement and now America has followed their satellites example and is employing their same principles of abandoning reasonable and proportionate rules of military engagement.
 
The real enemy is hatred, distrust, and misunderstanding. It is a myth to think that hard power alone defends nation-states in the modern world, what makes people turn to violence more often than not starts with injustice - no where is this more manifest than the injustice of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, if that had been settled 20 years ago America would not now being bled dry on a course doomed to failure.


Comment by H3xx on September 12, 2013 at 3:23am

@Bryan and Sassan

9/11 was 12 fucking years ago. I didn't bat an eye when it happened, and I won't bat an eye now. Yes I feel for the people who died, but I wasn't surprised by it, and I won't pretend that I cared very much about a building. WTC was a glorified bank and government office building. We have millions of those all over the country, that one just happened to be the tallest. Something I learned in grade school, when a bully knocks over your tower, you smile at him, and build it again. He gets bored when he can't get a rise out of you. We fell for 9/11 hook, line, and sinker.

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