Comment by Melchior Vulpius on January 12, 2012 at 1:45pm

Very moving.  I put it up on FB.  Thanks.

Comment by John Kelly on January 12, 2012 at 5:51pm

I think the problem is that atheists tend to unite around common ideologies regardless of technically not being definable.  The lack of a belief in God does create tendencies toward particular ideologies.

Amoralism is something that has been espoused by a number of people I have talked with even here on this site.

Furthermore, a large number of atheists wish to destroy something that most people hold dear.

While atheists are clearly persecuted, it is rational for anyone who is not an atheist to persecute atheists because a large number of atheists have a "my way of atheism or the highway" mentality and that is socially abhorrent.

Yes, atheists can be nice people, but the problem is that within the philosophical boundaries of atheist thought, right now radical ideologies are mainstream.  Nice people can be dangerous radicals toward their target groups.  Overzealousness about a philosophy can be as dangerous as overzealousness about a religion.  History has shown that.

I have seen people here on this site say that if they could, they would make every theist dead.  If we weren't a threat, then I could see the complaints about being persecuted as valid. 

However, given that most atheists I run across have little to no qualms about the persecution of theists, I simply find such arguments invalid.  Until the vast majority of the atheist community comes down hard on desires to restrict or persecute religion or religious expression, the argument that it is unfair persecution is completely invalid.

Humanity always forms communities based on ideologies.  Saying those atheists are not a part of us, is like Christians saying those who hate gays instead of loving them aren't real Christians.  In both cases they still have an effect.

Comment by Ron V on January 12, 2012 at 10:44pm

It has been, and will likely continue to be, a long process, but humanity has seen the following sequence-

animism, polytheism, monolatry, monotheism -

what is the logical progression here?

Comment by Kyle Wilkins on January 12, 2012 at 10:49pm

Good video.

large number of atheists wish to destroy something that most people hold dear.

I have to disagree with that John. I can see where you are coming from with that but that is just how, we'll use Christianity for this, when as soon as we present our side and showing how Jesus is similar to Horus and Mithra and we are showing let's say evolution to a group of creationists they feel attacked when yet no one is degrading them, and some of the basis on why Atheists believe what they believe. Some Atheists are indeed out to break someone down and make them feel degraded, but there are always people like that in every creed. I've personally done it to when I was being verbally attacked and tried to get away from it and the person wouldn't leave it alone.

Comment by Bob MacVay on January 12, 2012 at 11:23pm

I would be interested in the reaction cookiesdaddy got from facebook friends after posting the above.

Comment by John Kelly on January 13, 2012 at 12:30am

Kyle, there is nothing wrong with pointing out that someone believes something that is irrational to believe. The whole Jesus Horus Mithra thing is total bs perpetrated by a fringe scholar who goes by the name of D. M. Murdock/Acharya S.  But there are proofs of things like the pagan nature of YHWH in early Israelite worship.  Pointing out facts is fine.  Helping people discover truth is awesome.

The problem is that the vast majority of our atheist kind have decided to have a declared war on religion.  It is not just disagreeing with it, it is emnity.  And with emnity comes ugliness. 

It isn't about degrading them, it is about being oblivious to the reality that we live in a system and any concept of systems theory.  It is a devaluation of the present contribution of religious people to our current system that causes anti-theists to not want to put up with them.

It is a "kill whitey" vs "I have a dream" issue.

Comment by Andrew Strout on January 13, 2012 at 2:35pm

@ John Kelly:  In your first post you stated that "[you] have seen people here on this site say that if they could, they would make every theist dead.  If we weren't a threat, then I could see the complaints about being persecuted as valid."  Don't other religions or religious people think the same thing about people that don't believe in their creed.  Yet we need to respect them because that is their belief?  Religion has always had this unrequited respect.  I think if they want to keep that respect, then they need to respect our lack of belief as well.

I'll be the first to admit that life here on earth would be far better without religion, but I wouldn't want every theist dead.  That is an unintelligent statement to want every theist dead.  The problem is theists will cherry pick those statements and pronounce them as ideological statements of atheists as a whole, just like you.

The problem is there are far more theists that would like us dead.  for example

We are hated because we challenge them and they are scared to face death alone.  It is all fear based, which is a natural human instinct to fear the unknown.  But because that fear does not grip us like it does them they see us a parasitic idiots.  And their leaders are saying we add nothing to society, but without atheists we would have nowhere near the amount of technological advancements that we have today.

I would be fine with religion if they would step off their high horse and give atheists the respect we deserve.

Comment by John Kelly on January 13, 2012 at 3:12pm

"I would be fine with religion if they would step off their high horse and give atheists the respect we deserve."

I think we all need to realize that vicious opposition to a contrary system is human nature.  I believe as atheists, that we need to work to eliminate misconceptions about ourselves, and that we need to work some things out internally.

Because we aren't working within the system, yet are coexisting, we need to find a way to make both systems not clash so much.  Instead we are waging system war.  And yeah so are they.  Humanity always does this.

Far more theists would want us dead.  That is true.  But I think we can work on ways that we can make atheism appear less scary.  We live in an era where tolerance is possible.   

The reason why religion creates conflict is that it is an opposing system, not because it sucks.  In the end, what we need to start doing is encouraging the coexistence and cooperation between systems.  It is human nature to fight for your system.  We need to practice self-discipline and not give into such a primitive survival instinct.  We need to step outside of "my system" mentalities.

Comment by Andrew Strout on January 13, 2012 at 6:52pm

It is just unfortunate that the extremists in religion would never want to coexist with anyone other than those in their own religion.  Hopefully people of all creeds can learn to be more progressive and tolerant of anybodies faith or lack there of.


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