Comment by Gaytor on October 14, 2010 at 10:06pm

Two problems strike me theologically. The children haven't been dedicated or accepted "the Lord" so some sects would say, "No Heaven for you!" in regards to the dead child.

The other thought is that God Says, "I knew you in the womb." and "I shaped your mouth like a sword." and that to many says that God has a plan for everyone.

I of course say that rather than protecting life, Numbers 5 11-33 tells you how to abort a baby and test your wife's fidelity and Exodus 21:22 shows that a unborn baby is not worth a life but rather only money.

Comment by Joseph Ridgel on October 14, 2010 at 10:46pm

Gaytor - Very true. The Catholic Church used to teach that unbaptized babies spent eternity in Limbo.

My theory: If it wasn't for non-consensual sex, followed by an unplanned pregnancy, Christianity wouldn't exist.

Comment by rationalrevolution on October 15, 2010 at 7:44am

FYI, opposition to abortion goes back to the beginnings of Christianity. As early as the 2nd century the early Christians were railing against the abortion practices of the Greeks and Romans. It was in fact a major component of the early movement, despite the fact that there is nothing explicitly written about it in any of the Christians scriptures. Its been a major component of Catholic doctrine ever since.

At the time they railed against abortion as part of their general opposition to pretty much every aspect of the existing culture of the Greeks and Romans. It was seen as being related to sexual promiscuity, prostitution, and marital infidelity.

Comment by Jewelz on October 15, 2010 at 9:35am

I find this question more interesting than the abortion debate itself and I'm guilty of linking this all over the internets. I also linked this at one point but it was lost in a sea of comments. It's a page on various abortion beliefs in the history of the church. The most amusing part for me was Theodore, who organized the English church, assembled a penitential about 700 CE. Oral intercourse required from 7 years to a lifetime of penance; an abortion required only 120 days. HA! I'm not sure how accurate this information is because I haven't verified most if it, but it's interesting food for thought nonetheless.

When people use the word abortion, they're usually referring to voluntary abortion as opposed to spontaneous abortion which is usually referred to as miscarriage. But studies have shown that a large percentage of pregnancies (50% or more in some studies) end in early spontaneous abortion (chemical pregnancy) without the woman even knowing she was pregnant. So for religious people who believe fetuses don't go to heaven, that's an incredibly large number of souls burning in hell or waiting in purgatory, even taking birth control methods and voluntary abortion out of the equation.

I don't understand people who oppose abortion for non-religious reasons, or fence sitters (often claiming they're politically pro-choice but personally anti-choice) who create their own set of subjective morals regarding the issue. Nothing annoys me more than people who are personally anti-choice except for certain situations that always vary from one person to the next. How can someone be pro-choice for cases of rape and incest, but anti-choice for birth control failures or promiscuity. No one can possibly believe it's ok to murder infants born of rape or incest, but not ok to murder infants conceived accidentally, so why does their belief change prior to birth?

I really wish someone would tear up my logic as well. I just don't get it.

Comment by Becky Glynn on October 16, 2010 at 4:22am

Excellent links, Jewelz. The cartoon is marvelous and the information from cathology was interesting, to say the least. Things that just make you wonder WTF'ingF??????
I don't question fence sitters, per se, because I can understand through my daughter. She would never ever have an abortion herself, she says. On the other hand, she would never judge nor try to restrict someone else's choice to have an abortion. If I had a third hand, she has never been in the situation where an abortion would be the appropriate choice of action, so who knows in that case.


My husband and I found ourselves at a shrine in Japan dedicated to miscarried and aborted "souls". It was a little eerie, very beautiful, and full of all of these miniature idols the moms leave behind rather like lighting a candle. Oddest shrine we saw there, and we saw quite a few!

Comment by Becky Glynn on October 16, 2010 at 4:24am

Great Atheist Thinkers - thank you for your thoughts.

Comment by Shayna Erickson on October 16, 2010 at 7:26pm

I really feel that abortion for religion links back to premarital sex. Once upon a time they could make the argument that having sex outside of marriage was bad because you ran the risk of having children out of wedlock. Abortion (as well as birth control) changed the dynamic, so the only way to support the now entirely outdated standard is to protest the advances we've made.

On the other hand (and at the risk of bring that girl) keeping women as slaves to their reproductive systems supports the patriarchy on which most religions are founded. If a woman cannot unexpectedly find herself with child and without options then she is one step closer to a kind of equality that religion fights.

Comment by Becky Glynn on October 20, 2010 at 11:25pm

Shayna, I hope we all risk being that girl! It's the damn truth after all. Thank you.

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