Totally Braced to be Crucified for This....

I personally agree with T-foot on this.

Misogyny is a real problem.  In a world where rape is still used by militaries to demoralize a country's people, how could this be denied?  In a world where girls are kidnapped and forced into prostitution in droves, how could this be denied?  In a world where women's struggle for equal pay and reproductive rights are still an issue in first world countries, how could this be denied?

Do some posters online go too far with sexist comments and other stupidities?  No doubt.  Do some atheist men see women as objects, or what have you?  Absolutely.  Don't think I'm defending these types.  I'm merely suggesting that perhaps we are looking at this and seeing this as the general behaviors when they are in fact the anomolies.

I've been on many atheist forums and chatrooms these past four years.  I love it!  I've never met such cool people in my life!  Our own chatroom here on Think Atheist is awesome!  Great company!  There is a greater percentage of men than women in these forums, just as we see in society.  I've discussed, debated, and shared alot with these guys.  Does the topic of sex come up?  Duh....we're adult humans.  And sex is a fun topic for most of us!  But I've never, EVER felt, in the hundreds of forum situations I've been in, that if I felt uncomfortable or uninterested in those types of discussions, I would be ostracized or criticized for saying so.  I have found that 90% or greater of atheist men I've encountered online are courteous, gentlemanly, and intellectually engaging.  Personally, I find it insulting that these wonderful men are being lumped together and branded sexist, walking penises that only want women atheists around for one thing. And if you can't see the irony in how they are being perceived, then I'm sorry for you.

There are REAL women's issues out there.  Feminism is a REAL stance.  But I can't even allow myself to consider myself a feminist, who fights for equality and human rights for women worldwide, when feminism is now beginning to mean "how DARE you think I'm attractive as well as intelligent" or "you asked me out on a date because you were interested in me?  YOU PIG!".  THIS is not feminism....this is stupidity. 

Just my observation.

Views: 1122

Comment by Unseen on January 8, 2013 at 6:31pm

Thanks Unseen - my sort of group. The man hating feminists are getting into, or have infiltrated the education system at every level. My brother is a high school teacher, and he has learned to hate women, because of the so called feminists in the education system. Same as theists, one has to be loud and proud to be either atheist or non-hating feminist. I, as a female, never judge what women do as a job. Prostitutes, strippers etc. Those sort of jobs helped me understand what makes men tick - interesting, from my point of view, and I also have a bloke who has explained what makes men tick.
Otherwise, I would have been clueless.

To educate women about men, I once wrote Ten Unpleasant Truths About Men. I did so in the voice of a female character:

1. The #1 obstacle to understanding the male gender is that of assuming that they think like we do. Believe me, sister, they don’t.

2. Everybody wants to be accepted “as is,” but this is doubly true for guys. Females are more likely to contemplate changing themselves to please their partner, but changing yourself will not make him feel like meeting you halfway. It will just prove to him that he was right in the first place.

3. Pressuring your guy to change or to commit will just alienate him. “You’ll catch more bees with honey than with vinegar,” as they say. But not everything was meant to be. Sometimes you need to have the strength to walk away instead of pursuing the impulse to control or mold someone else. He has every right to be who he is just as you have the right to be who you are.

4. When you try to control someone, they control you. You end up watching them, spying on them, checking their cell phone, reading their e-mails, and so on. Then you find yourself planning and obsessing how to handle him.

5. Getting pregnant will cause more problems than it solves. It may be the tipping point that sends him away, when you thought it’d make him commit. Don’t be stupid. Now, read the next point. It’s a follow-up to this one.

6. Babies are not little bundles of love. They are little bundles of need. Having a baby before your life is prepared for it will really, really screw up your personal and social development as well as your education. It could impoverish you and put your career aspirations on hold indefinitely. It may even mean giving up your career entirely.

7. Males are acquisitive. To them, a partner is a kind of possession. All too often, we pattern our relationships on the maternal role. We think that by caring for, loving, and nurturing we are cultivating love in the other. This may work for kids (although even that is doutful: what is your relationship with your mom like?). Apply it to guys and you are headed for disaster. Guys make us chase them by ignoring us. If he thinks he owns you, he will move on to his next project.

8. I can’t stress this one too much: Guys don’t give a rat’s ass about marriage. They do not sit around dreaming about a neat little house with a nice yard and a couple kids running around playing with their kitty cat and puppy dog while their wife bakes cookies and knits sweaters. This is even true if you get a marriage proposal. Here’s the proof:Bride is the thickest magazine on the rack. If you could live a frickin’ zillion years and search the entire universe, you’d never find a Groom magazine.

9. Sure, we all want to be loved for what’s inside, and a guy can learn to love what you have on the inside, but who you are is also how you look. Guys are very visually oriented. Now, there are “chubby chasers” and (eeek!!!) guys who think anorexics are hot. However, if you want the normal guys chasing you, get in shape and learn to present yourself because physical appearance counts when it comes to guys!

10. As for sex and birth control, remember you are the one who gets pregnant. We’ve often heard girls say “It takes two to tango so it’s only fair that the guy take equal responsibility for avoiding pregnancy.” Listen, my sweets: an unwanted pregnancy is a disaster. You make sure you don’t get pregnant. Why should he care? He’s not the one who’ll get the huge tummy, hemorrhoids, and stretch marks. And look around you: much of the time they don’t stick around. Marriages that start with an unwanted pregnancy usually don’t last.

Comment by kris feenstra on January 8, 2013 at 6:57pm

I found the videos (parts one and two) neither credible nor compelling regarding the position that 'Feminism' (sic*) is poisoning atheism, but I am interested in the subject.

Are the poisonous 'feminists' in question really disproportionately more numerous and/ or toxic than the anomalous sexists mentioned in the OP? From the video, the major backlash seems to be harassment policies implemented at skeptics conventions, but those policies aren't uniquely feminist, and most of the terms seem reasonable enough when you don't blow them way out of proportion. Sure, I think it is a entirely tenable position to criticize nanny states, but it isn't entirely clear that 'feminism' or 'feminists' are definitively responsible for such policies**. (**edit: I missed a comment in one of the videos regarding skeptics conferences and harassment policies, which does lean to 'feminists' holding responsibility). 

Personally, I find it insulting that these wonderful men are being lumped together and branded sexist, walking penises that only want women atheists around for one thing. And if you can't see the irony in how they are being perceived, then I'm sorry for you.

Where is it that this occurs and is it's frequency in 'feminists' that much higher than the broad brush judgements and hypocrisy found within all groups? This isn't a pointed question. I really just don't experience this sort of prejudice with any statistical significance in my life. In my personal experience as an individual man (as I don't speak for a larger group and have yet to try being a woman), I find feminists and 'feminists' alike tend to give me more credit as a man than their vocal opposition does, but perhaps everyone's milage varies.

*I don't really like using these quotation marks, but I am preserving the usage from the video title because it appears to distinguish perceived radicals from the rest of the feminist movement.

Comment by Kir Komrik on January 8, 2013 at 7:19pm

Hey Kris,

Part one:

"Where is it that this occurs... "

I think what she is saying is that the rules seems to imply it. The rule against fake jewelry is one good example. I don't even know what that means. If I can't even decipher why that is offensive there is an implication that my relationship with women is defective somehow.

"and is it's frequency in 'feminists' that much higher than the broad brush judgements and hypocrisy found within all groups?"

[my quote button is not working]

My own experience is that the views espoused by the women in these videos are fringe views within the feminist movement. I can second your observation that I've never seen this kind of prejudice in my own life.

- kk

Comment by kris feenstra on January 8, 2013 at 7:38pm

"I've never seen this kind of prejudice in my own life."

Ah, so it's not just me. I've encountered it a little bit, but who hasn't encountered some prejudice in life for one thing or another?

The fake jewelry thing refers to an incident with Amy Davis Roth (I had to look it up), and naturally, there is more than one side to the story. I don't know if such a rule actually exists anywhere, and I don't have enough info on Amy's position to really take it into account. This is a different side of the coin, which no doubt has it's own biases: http://freethoughtblogs.com/lousycanuck/2012/08/16/the-campaign-aga...

Comment by Kir Komrik on January 8, 2013 at 7:47pm

Hey Kris,

I think most men have never seen this kind of prejudice, though I can't speak categorically. Its just a suspicion. Usually when I get to know activists I find that they treat me as an individual first.

Thanks for the tip as I had no idea what they were talking about.

- kk

Comment by Ed on January 8, 2013 at 10:11pm

In my neck of the woods it is still not fashionable for a female to straighten her spine and speak out about living in a man's world. It's sad but true. Some of the younger generation are more vocal but there remains an unspoken code of conduct that seems to be expected by the patriarchs in charge. Before marrying I dated a feminist or two in the big city and we got along just peachy. Uh, well, there was the one time that I opened the car door on her side for her and she politely reprimanded me. It was at that point that I almost felt the need to cut the evening short by explaining the difference between placing women on a pedestal and just being a nice guy who still believes chivalry has it place. And I believe this is a crucial point that needs to be understood. Acts of kindness and consideration should never be interpreted as a character flaw or sexist. I can't believe there are many women who truly would be offended by my valet actions.

Comment by kOrsan on January 9, 2013 at 12:51pm

Pretty good too.

Comment by Dr.Grixis on January 9, 2013 at 5:10pm

We're not crucifying anyone these days, nailing someone to a cross takes so much work, you know. Even with a handy nailgun you still have to find the right size nail and dial the right amount of pressure otherwise you just completely shatter the wrist. Took me at least 5 internet trolls to figure that one out! And then there's the blood and the screaming, you can't use the garage for 4 days and you have to keep all the scavengers away at night. It's easy to make jokes about crucifying people, but it really is hard work.

Comment by archaeopteryx on January 9, 2013 at 7:47pm

RE: "you have to keep all the scavengers away at night" - the racoons are the worst, they can get in anywhere!. Sometimes I think they can even open doors, with their tiny little paws --

Comment by RobertPiano on January 9, 2013 at 8:00pm

Had a "stare down" last night with a big raccoon. I think he won.

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