Totally Braced to be Crucified for This....

I personally agree with T-foot on this.

Misogyny is a real problem.  In a world where rape is still used by militaries to demoralize a country's people, how could this be denied?  In a world where girls are kidnapped and forced into prostitution in droves, how could this be denied?  In a world where women's struggle for equal pay and reproductive rights are still an issue in first world countries, how could this be denied?

Do some posters online go too far with sexist comments and other stupidities?  No doubt.  Do some atheist men see women as objects, or what have you?  Absolutely.  Don't think I'm defending these types.  I'm merely suggesting that perhaps we are looking at this and seeing this as the general behaviors when they are in fact the anomolies.

I've been on many atheist forums and chatrooms these past four years.  I love it!  I've never met such cool people in my life!  Our own chatroom here on Think Atheist is awesome!  Great company!  There is a greater percentage of men than women in these forums, just as we see in society.  I've discussed, debated, and shared alot with these guys.  Does the topic of sex come up?  Duh....we're adult humans.  And sex is a fun topic for most of us!  But I've never, EVER felt, in the hundreds of forum situations I've been in, that if I felt uncomfortable or uninterested in those types of discussions, I would be ostracized or criticized for saying so.  I have found that 90% or greater of atheist men I've encountered online are courteous, gentlemanly, and intellectually engaging.  Personally, I find it insulting that these wonderful men are being lumped together and branded sexist, walking penises that only want women atheists around for one thing. And if you can't see the irony in how they are being perceived, then I'm sorry for you.

There are REAL women's issues out there.  Feminism is a REAL stance.  But I can't even allow myself to consider myself a feminist, who fights for equality and human rights for women worldwide, when feminism is now beginning to mean "how DARE you think I'm attractive as well as intelligent" or "you asked me out on a date because you were interested in me?  YOU PIG!".  THIS is not feminism....this is stupidity. 

Just my observation.

Views: 1145

Comment by Suzanne Olson-Hyde on January 8, 2013 at 1:48am
am a feminist, and I have felt, say for the last ten years, that feminism was being hijacked by women who hated men. This was not how feminism started. Control over one's fertility, not to get the sack when one married, the opportunity to get the best education one can, and then the best job one can, using that education.

I know that women around the world, need men to stand up for them in whatever scenario, as is what is happening in India when the woman was raped and died. Nothing will change unless women take the help that is needed and is imperative, in the struggle against rampant misogyny, as it is with the Islamic evil.

The day that flirting is considered Politically Incorrect, we are going to be done out of a lot of fun. I want women to be strong, and to be able to tell a bloke to fuck off, if need be, but to also treat men with respect. There are a lot of really good men around, and there are a lot of bitchy, controlling, manipulating cows around, too.

I wonder how many men on this site have been done over by women?

Feminism to me, means equality in education, jobs, pay etc. Other than that, have huge respect for men in all the jobs they do, that I for one, could not do. All the dirty jobs, all the back breaking work that men do.

I am not married, but shacked up with a bloke, and have been called a tart by a xian - luv it, and said they should try it some time.

As RobertPiano has said, men and women are really different, can cause problems sometimes, especially if Robert pisses his girlfriend off, while she is tying him up :)and it can take a while to find the right one, or as right as it can be....understand the differences, and both sides can live happily together.

So, Kim, onward and upward against the women who hate men, I have argued this with women, 'cause we need the backing of our male friends and lovers.

Does the topic of sex come up - I have had some doozy conversations about sex - it's all about the learning curve of what makes the opposite sex tick. Viva le Difference.
Comment by Suzanne Olson-Hyde on January 8, 2013 at 5:34am
Well, actually, I think you did Archy, fairly recently too. I think his name was...Dave.
Comment by Unseen on January 8, 2013 at 9:43am

Suzanne, you might enjoy the Facebook group, Feminism Is For Everybody, a non-man hating feminist group with both men and women in it. Several of the women are now or have been sex workers, most typically nude dancers.

Comment by Danny Sanchez on January 8, 2013 at 10:16am

I think you braced yourself for nothing Kim. I was very interested to read a comment with an opposing view but everyone here seems to agree with you and Thunderfoot. I loved the video Nate posted. It was a perspective I had not really thought of before.

Comment by Kairan Nierde on January 8, 2013 at 5:33pm

Are you talking about this:

It should thus not come as a surprise that there could be a specifically feminist metaphysics, where the question of prime importance is to what extent the central concepts and categories of metaphysics, in terms of which we make sense of our reality, could be value laden in ways that are particularly gendered.

I agree that this statement seems to imply the creation of more than one type of metaphysics.  I think its just sloppy writing though, since the second part of the sentence deals with analyzing existing attempts discern the nature of reality with the aim of correcting for any gender bias.  The end result wouldn't be a metaphysics for women and a metaphysics for men, but perhaps instead a slight recalibration of current metaphysical thought.  I know that when I was a Christian I would have come up with a different metaphysics than I would now, with an atheist/naturalist worldview...so I can imagine how coming from within a patriarchal value system could influence our attempt to discern the true nature of things.

Comment by Suzanne Olson-Hyde on January 8, 2013 at 5:45pm
Thanks Unseen - my sort of group. The man hating feminists are getting into, or have infiltrated the education system at every level. My brother is a high school teacher, and he has learned to hate women, because of the so called feminists in the education system. Same as theists, one has to be loud and proud to be either atheist or non-hating feminist. I, as a female, never judge what women do as a job. Prostitutes, strippers etc. Those sort of jobs helped me understand what makes men tick - interesting, from my point of view, and I also have a bloke who has explained what makes men tick.
Otherwise, I would have been clueless.
Comment by Kir Komrik on January 8, 2013 at 6:09pm

Hey Kim,

This is more validation of how my life is set apart is some strange way. My world is matriarchal so I'll give you some insight from that perspective. This debate is about sexual repression and these "feminist" girls are deeply sexually repressed. That's all.

In a world where men and women know how to love each other - and are sexually healthy - none of this comes up ... period. And atheism is not science ... or feminism, and injecting that into it is poison. I actually agree with the girl in the video that you can disable youtube comments if you want. But people pretty much know when they see this that they are going to church and most won't watch it. I know I don't.

This is why as an evangelical atheist I believe it is better to leave ideology (and science to some degree) out of it. Atheism is just the "off channel". Nothing else.

In the larger society around me women are not paid equally, they contributions to society are ignored and they have been mistreated for hundreds of years. But this stuff you've posted about is hate-based male-bashing, imo.

- kk

Comment by Unseen on January 8, 2013 at 6:23pm

The end result wouldn't be a metaphysics for women and a metaphysics for men, but perhaps instead a slight recalibration of current metaphysical thought. 

I don't think there's a gender bias in whether one considers idealism or materialism more convincing, for example. If someone is more swayed by a male than a female who's making the arguments, that is a sociological issue, not a philosophical one, and has absolutely nothing to do with what is ultimately the case.

Comment by Unseen on January 8, 2013 at 6:31pm

Thanks Unseen - my sort of group. The man hating feminists are getting into, or have infiltrated the education system at every level. My brother is a high school teacher, and he has learned to hate women, because of the so called feminists in the education system. Same as theists, one has to be loud and proud to be either atheist or non-hating feminist. I, as a female, never judge what women do as a job. Prostitutes, strippers etc. Those sort of jobs helped me understand what makes men tick - interesting, from my point of view, and I also have a bloke who has explained what makes men tick.
Otherwise, I would have been clueless.

To educate women about men, I once wrote Ten Unpleasant Truths About Men. I did so in the voice of a female character:

1. The #1 obstacle to understanding the male gender is that of assuming that they think like we do. Believe me, sister, they don’t.

2. Everybody wants to be accepted “as is,” but this is doubly true for guys. Females are more likely to contemplate changing themselves to please their partner, but changing yourself will not make him feel like meeting you halfway. It will just prove to him that he was right in the first place.

3. Pressuring your guy to change or to commit will just alienate him. “You’ll catch more bees with honey than with vinegar,” as they say. But not everything was meant to be. Sometimes you need to have the strength to walk away instead of pursuing the impulse to control or mold someone else. He has every right to be who he is just as you have the right to be who you are.

4. When you try to control someone, they control you. You end up watching them, spying on them, checking their cell phone, reading their e-mails, and so on. Then you find yourself planning and obsessing how to handle him.

5. Getting pregnant will cause more problems than it solves. It may be the tipping point that sends him away, when you thought it’d make him commit. Don’t be stupid. Now, read the next point. It’s a follow-up to this one.

6. Babies are not little bundles of love. They are little bundles of need. Having a baby before your life is prepared for it will really, really screw up your personal and social development as well as your education. It could impoverish you and put your career aspirations on hold indefinitely. It may even mean giving up your career entirely.

7. Males are acquisitive. To them, a partner is a kind of possession. All too often, we pattern our relationships on the maternal role. We think that by caring for, loving, and nurturing we are cultivating love in the other. This may work for kids (although even that is doutful: what is your relationship with your mom like?). Apply it to guys and you are headed for disaster. Guys make us chase them by ignoring us. If he thinks he owns you, he will move on to his next project.

8. I can’t stress this one too much: Guys don’t give a rat’s ass about marriage. They do not sit around dreaming about a neat little house with a nice yard and a couple kids running around playing with their kitty cat and puppy dog while their wife bakes cookies and knits sweaters. This is even true if you get a marriage proposal. Here’s the proof:Bride is the thickest magazine on the rack. If you could live a frickin’ zillion years and search the entire universe, you’d never find a Groom magazine.

9. Sure, we all want to be loved for what’s inside, and a guy can learn to love what you have on the inside, but who you are is also how you look. Guys are very visually oriented. Now, there are “chubby chasers” and (eeek!!!) guys who think anorexics are hot. However, if you want the normal guys chasing you, get in shape and learn to present yourself because physical appearance counts when it comes to guys!

10. As for sex and birth control, remember you are the one who gets pregnant. We’ve often heard girls say “It takes two to tango so it’s only fair that the guy take equal responsibility for avoiding pregnancy.” Listen, my sweets: an unwanted pregnancy is a disaster. You make sure you don’t get pregnant. Why should he care? He’s not the one who’ll get the huge tummy, hemorrhoids, and stretch marks. And look around you: much of the time they don’t stick around. Marriages that start with an unwanted pregnancy usually don’t last.

Comment by kris feenstra on January 8, 2013 at 6:57pm

I found the videos (parts one and two) neither credible nor compelling regarding the position that 'Feminism' (sic*) is poisoning atheism, but I am interested in the subject.

Are the poisonous 'feminists' in question really disproportionately more numerous and/ or toxic than the anomalous sexists mentioned in the OP? From the video, the major backlash seems to be harassment policies implemented at skeptics conventions, but those policies aren't uniquely feminist, and most of the terms seem reasonable enough when you don't blow them way out of proportion. Sure, I think it is a entirely tenable position to criticize nanny states, but it isn't entirely clear that 'feminism' or 'feminists' are definitively responsible for such policies**. (**edit: I missed a comment in one of the videos regarding skeptics conferences and harassment policies, which does lean to 'feminists' holding responsibility). 

Personally, I find it insulting that these wonderful men are being lumped together and branded sexist, walking penises that only want women atheists around for one thing. And if you can't see the irony in how they are being perceived, then I'm sorry for you.

Where is it that this occurs and is it's frequency in 'feminists' that much higher than the broad brush judgements and hypocrisy found within all groups? This isn't a pointed question. I really just don't experience this sort of prejudice with any statistical significance in my life. In my personal experience as an individual man (as I don't speak for a larger group and have yet to try being a woman), I find feminists and 'feminists' alike tend to give me more credit as a man than their vocal opposition does, but perhaps everyone's milage varies.

*I don't really like using these quotation marks, but I am preserving the usage from the video title because it appears to distinguish perceived radicals from the rest of the feminist movement.

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