Totally Braced to be Crucified for This....

I personally agree with T-foot on this.

Misogyny is a real problem.  In a world where rape is still used by militaries to demoralize a country's people, how could this be denied?  In a world where girls are kidnapped and forced into prostitution in droves, how could this be denied?  In a world where women's struggle for equal pay and reproductive rights are still an issue in first world countries, how could this be denied?

Do some posters online go too far with sexist comments and other stupidities?  No doubt.  Do some atheist men see women as objects, or what have you?  Absolutely.  Don't think I'm defending these types.  I'm merely suggesting that perhaps we are looking at this and seeing this as the general behaviors when they are in fact the anomolies.

I've been on many atheist forums and chatrooms these past four years.  I love it!  I've never met such cool people in my life!  Our own chatroom here on Think Atheist is awesome!  Great company!  There is a greater percentage of men than women in these forums, just as we see in society.  I've discussed, debated, and shared alot with these guys.  Does the topic of sex come up?  Duh....we're adult humans.  And sex is a fun topic for most of us!  But I've never, EVER felt, in the hundreds of forum situations I've been in, that if I felt uncomfortable or uninterested in those types of discussions, I would be ostracized or criticized for saying so.  I have found that 90% or greater of atheist men I've encountered online are courteous, gentlemanly, and intellectually engaging.  Personally, I find it insulting that these wonderful men are being lumped together and branded sexist, walking penises that only want women atheists around for one thing. And if you can't see the irony in how they are being perceived, then I'm sorry for you.

There are REAL women's issues out there.  Feminism is a REAL stance.  But I can't even allow myself to consider myself a feminist, who fights for equality and human rights for women worldwide, when feminism is now beginning to mean "how DARE you think I'm attractive as well as intelligent" or "you asked me out on a date because you were interested in me?  YOU PIG!".  THIS is not feminism....this is stupidity. 

Just my observation.

Views: 1212

Comment by Kairan Nierde on January 7, 2013 at 12:04am

But I can't even allow myself to consider myself a feminist, who fights for equality and human rights for women worldwide, when feminism is now beginning to mean "how DARE you think I'm attractive as well as intelligent" or "you asked me out on a date because you were interested in me?

That is stupidity.  Feminism/womanism as I know it from blogs and books dedicated to the subject (not any of these atheist-feminists) really looks nothing like this. 

This whole controversy is all very strange.  I am a feminist but I do not understand much of what these atheist-feminists are up in arms about (Jewelry is sexual harassment?  Ok, then, mullets must be murder.).  Some of their A+ ideas seemed interesting at the start...but I haven't followed their development.  If this video is an accurate portrayal of the A+ crowd, I'm very disappointed in the direction their 'movement' has chosen.

I would just like to let you all know that not all feminists are like the women and man in the video.  As a feminist, I prize free speech...if you don't like what someone is saying, you can call them out on their bullshit, tolerate it, or leave.  You don't get to silence them unless they are directly inciting violence.  That's democracy, and yes, sometimes democracy gets ugly.  In the marketplace of ideas, gender equality has to stand on its own merits.

It also alarms me that not just verbal but also visual forms of self-expression are being stifled at conferences.  I can't believe these conferences have dress codes!  What the fuck?  Jewelry, make-up, and sexually appealing fashion can produce a "sexualized" environment (which is fine) in which sexual harassment may be more apt to occur, BUT we're all adults here.  In the year 2013, a woman can wear something sexy, expect to be treated well, and is justified in defending herself from sexual harassment if it does occur.  She doesn't need some patronizing fashion police telling her what to wear to "keep her safe" from harassment. 

This is classic blaming the victim (you tramp, look at what your sexy clothes made that helpless, libidinous man do!) and it displaces the responsibility for poor behavior from the harasser onto the harassee's clothes.  There is a long tradition of rape victims having to defend their choice of dress.  Mainstream feminists have argue that to tell women what they can and cannot wear is to embrace the idea that men cannot control their urges and must to act on base desires in the presence of visual stimuli.  Utter bullshit.  I respect men more than that.  To be perfectly honest, blaming sexual harassment on a woman’s appearance is a common place tactic used by rape apologists and detractors of women's rights. 

The solution to sexual harassment is not controlling dress but instead, it is to foster respect for women, no matter how they dress.   



Comment by Jimmy Russell on January 7, 2013 at 12:23am

Reminds me of a Dave Chappelle bit from his standup... Basically says woman should absolutley be allowed to wear what they want without fear of harrassment or rape etc. etc.  But...also, that when you do go out dressed scantily clad, that doesn't make you a whore, but you are wearing a whore's uniform.  So don't get pissed at unwanted advances.  Sure if a guy gets too pushy kick him in the dick but otherwise it's just the way of the world. 

It will be a sad day tho when these people are held up as bat shit crazy examples of atheism and we take huge steps back for it. 

Comment by CJoe on January 7, 2013 at 12:38am

THANK YOU! I applaud anyone brave enough to speak up. You said it perfectly. And I back Thunderf00t as well. Misogyny is a problem, but it shouldn't be a word we lob at anyone with whom we disagree. Criticism of women is not sexism, and it's insulting to suggest such a thing. I could go on, but I'll stop. For now. Thanks again, Kim.

Comment by Ben wright on January 7, 2013 at 1:24pm
I didn't want to say much to friends about this cause I thought am I a sexist and just haven't realised?! I saw one Video on YouTube and they were saying its sexist to ask women out because you are putting them in an awkward situation and asserting your dominance over them???? Also they are asking for a boycot on Richard Dawkins! Very odd state of affairs if you ask me.
Comment by Unseen on January 7, 2013 at 8:40pm

Whether out of an overabundance of enthusiasm for feminism or a sad and twisted belief there was such a thing, a lot of feminism in the 1970's consisted of insisting there were critter such as feminist mathematics, feminist metaphysics, and other such nonsense. 

While women deserve to have the same opportunities as men, as is their right, it does not follow that women will want to take advantage of opportunities to the same degree or same proportion as men. Why? Duh? Women and men really are different in ways which are not entirely the result of cultural conditioning. 

It may be that atheism doesn't attract as many women as men because it's not as attractive to as many women as men. Simple as that.

Comment by Kairan Nierde on January 7, 2013 at 10:18pm

Ben--it's not sexist at all to ask a woman out on a date.  The only situation I could imagine that might be inappropriate would be if you were asking out a woman who feels obligated to date you because you hold some power over a boss asking out his employee.  One thing about feminism is that there is no central feminist organization, so, you get a wide variety of 'theory' from many different sources.  There is a lot of bunk out there.  Even the most visible feminists ("leaders") are up for critique.  There is no official version of feminism. 

Unseen--could you elaborate on "feminist mathematics" and "feminist metaphysics?"  Where did you hear about this strangeness? I have never encountered such ideas. 


Comment by Unseen on January 7, 2013 at 10:25pm

Just google "feminist mathematics." 

Comment by Kairan Nierde on January 7, 2013 at 10:57pm

Le google has generous results on "feminist metaphysics" but not so much on "feminist mathematics."  Feminist metaphysics makes sense to me since we often view the world through the lense of patriarchy.  Feminist mathematics would only make sense to me if it were in involved with creating more inclusive methods for education...I don't see how the substance of math could have been/could be influenced by gender.

Psychology Today: The Pros and Cons of Feminism

This article is a tidy run-down that contrasts the difference between social justice-oriented feminism and four negative forms of feminism.

Stanford Encylopedia of Philosophy - Feminist Metaphysics

I found the first paragraph of this article very informative.  Makes a lot of sense.



Comment by Unseen on January 8, 2013 at 12:01am

The last sentence of the first paragraph tells me that so-called "feminist metaphysics" is really a sociological discussion, not a truly metaphysical or philosophical one, except perhaps in the context of a philosophy of the social sciences. Metaphysics seeks ONE answer to the nature of reality, not one for men and one for women.

Comment by Suzanne Olson-Hyde on January 8, 2013 at 1:48am
am a feminist, and I have felt, say for the last ten years, that feminism was being hijacked by women who hated men. This was not how feminism started. Control over one's fertility, not to get the sack when one married, the opportunity to get the best education one can, and then the best job one can, using that education.

I know that women around the world, need men to stand up for them in whatever scenario, as is what is happening in India when the woman was raped and died. Nothing will change unless women take the help that is needed and is imperative, in the struggle against rampant misogyny, as it is with the Islamic evil.

The day that flirting is considered Politically Incorrect, we are going to be done out of a lot of fun. I want women to be strong, and to be able to tell a bloke to fuck off, if need be, but to also treat men with respect. There are a lot of really good men around, and there are a lot of bitchy, controlling, manipulating cows around, too.

I wonder how many men on this site have been done over by women?

Feminism to me, means equality in education, jobs, pay etc. Other than that, have huge respect for men in all the jobs they do, that I for one, could not do. All the dirty jobs, all the back breaking work that men do.

I am not married, but shacked up with a bloke, and have been called a tart by a xian - luv it, and said they should try it some time.

As RobertPiano has said, men and women are really different, can cause problems sometimes, especially if Robert pisses his girlfriend off, while she is tying him up :)and it can take a while to find the right one, or as right as it can be....understand the differences, and both sides can live happily together.

So, Kim, onward and upward against the women who hate men, I have argued this with women, 'cause we need the backing of our male friends and lovers.

Does the topic of sex come up - I have had some doozy conversations about sex - it's all about the learning curve of what makes the opposite sex tick. Viva le Difference.


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