Comment by Reggie on July 29, 2009 at 10:56pm

It's a never ending war. Good, informative post, Sabre! Thank you.

Comment by Dave G on July 30, 2009 at 10:27am

It is indeed a blatant violation of the establishment clause, and even the provision of money to religious groups that are ostensibly to be used for non-religious purposes are questionable, since it may be used to replace funding that will then be used for proselytizing. (I realize that this is a grey area, thus my use of questionable. Debate on this topic would be interesting)

These funds, however, are not even being provided with that slight bow to the law.

Comment by Dave G on July 30, 2009 at 3:56pm

Neal, if they are restricting who they are helping by religious beliefs, then that is certainly a problem. I was thinking more along the lines of a church that runs a soup kitchen, one that provides food to anyone, without question, and also without prayer, proselytizing, or promotion of their religion. It certainly seems perfectly secular, and therefore unobjectionable.

But, what if the church then uses the money it had been using to run the kitchen, money which is no longer needed to fund it, as the government grant is now funding it, to preach? A case could be made that the government funds are indirectly funding religious promotion.

Comment by SabreNation on July 31, 2009 at 9:22am

You make a very good point, Dave. Makes me think of a recent local event here in Buffalo. Mercy Hospital received an $30 million government grant for renovating and upgrading their facilities. Mercy Hospital is sponsored and overseen by Catholic Health Systems. Per CHS policy, they will not prescribe any form of birth control nor will they perform abortions (even in life threatening situations) or even refer you to anyone that will. I had one friend that went a OB/GYN there for a pregnancy test. When it came out positive she decided to inquire into abortion, not only did the doctor refuse to point her in the direction of anyone that would do it, she got a 15 minute lecture on the evils of abortion and why she should keep the baby. She switched to an independent OB/GYN with no religious affiliation the next day.

Should this hospital be eligible to receive tax payer dollars? They are run by a sternly sectarian organization and not only are the hospital's policies based in Catholicism but they apparently have no qualms preaching to you about their policies if you ask about something the Catholic church says is a no-no.

On the other hand, Buffalo is sorely lacking in quality emergency care centers (ECMC and Millard-Fillmore/Gates are the only decent ones), and a large chunk of that grant is going to improve Mercy's emergency care operations (not-so-fondly known in Buffalo as "The Butcher Shop.")

It's certainly an interesting point. There are plenty of other hospitals with no religious affiliation that could have received that grant money.

It still kinda irks me that with our current budget crisis no one has asked why we still allow churches and religious institutions tax breaks anyway. They certainly benefit from all the things tax money pays for. If a church is on fire, the fire department will come put it out. If someone robs a church the police will investigate. They are obviously deeply involved in the American political process. So why don't they have to pay taxes? Could you IMAGINE the influx of money if the government were to start applying all the normal property and income taxes to religious institutions?

Comment by Dave G on July 31, 2009 at 12:08pm

Quite so, Sabre. The tax-exempt status of churches is, if you will forgive the phrase, a sacred cow.

Comment by Reggie on July 31, 2009 at 12:59pm

The tax-exempt status of churches is, if you will forgive the phrase, a sacred cow.

I fucking hate that cow.

Comment by Dave G on July 31, 2009 at 2:33pm

@Neal
With regard to the coup kitchen, we'll say for the sake of argument that it is in a neutral, non-religious location.
And I agree that any religious group would have great difficulty in separating their religious aims from their secular ones, even when their intent to do so was completely honest. If I were a member of a church that wished to perform such a charitable service, and wished to get government money to fund it, I would make a point of forming a separate, secular organization for that purpose. That would dramatically reduce the possibility of violation of the establishment clause.

Comment by SabreNation on July 31, 2009 at 2:58pm

@Neal

That's my thought process as well. I think the "in the area" part is where the problem comes in. While there are plenty of non-religious hospitals in and around Buffalo, there is a severe LACK of them in the south Buffalo area. Actually Mercy is the only hospital for anyone in south Buffalo, West Seneca, Orchard Park, Lackawanna, Blasdell, and a number of other suburbs it is the closest hospital there is. Furthering the problem, the NEXT closest hospitals are the afore-mentioned, already state-of-the-art ECMC and Millard-Filmore/Gates Circle Hospitals.

The emergency care section of Mercy was WOEFULLY inadequate. There were no separate rooms. The "emergency room" literally looked like it was once just a hallway and they decided to cram about 20 beds in there separated by hospital curtains. It was a joke. If you've ever watched a war movie involving a scene in one of those cliche makeshift war hospitals which is just a bunch of beds blocked off by curtains you can picture the scene. And this was the busiest emergency care center in all of Western New York.

So, nobody stepping up to say "hey wait a minute came from a combination of factors:
1) No other hospitals within the South Buffalo region.
2) A disgusting, under-equipped emergency care section
3) South Buffalo remains to this day tied VERY strongly to it's early Irish Catholic roots. I'd estimate around 75% of the people living in South Buffalo can trace their bloodline to Ireland and of that 75%, a good 80-90% are practicing Catholics. So, in the immediate area there was little-to-no resistance to a Catholic hospital receiving a large government grant. Anyone outside the South Buffalo area was easily fought off seeing as they had much closer access to the outstanding ECMC or MF/GC hospitals.

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