Comment by Nick on April 16, 2009 at 12:54pm

The differences between your form of Christianity, and the other sects are so little and insignificant from an outsiders perspective that calling you all Christians works well enough. It's like claiming black and white ipods are the only true ipods because they were the original colors, and these new paints are just perversions and pretenders. Thank you for your comments Mike.

Comment by Michale K. on April 16, 2009 at 1:04pm

Hi Denuvian,

You make an interesting point. But the true difference is Heaven (black and white Ipods) and Hell (The perversions and pretenders). I often ask the question... Do the Goats(coloured Ipods) really know that they are goats(Coloured Ipods)? On the great day of iJudgement... only the Black and white IPods will be allowed into iTunes.

Comment by Gaytor on April 16, 2009 at 1:35pm

Hi Mike. Thank you for your concern for us. Penn of Penn and Teller posted a video defending the very type of proselytizing that you are doing. The intent is good, but it's a lack of understanding that gets us here to begin with.
A Christian... One who professes a belief in Christ. I really don't care how it's perverted from the New Testament. Jesus didn't fulfill his prophecy in Mathew 34:24 (and the other gospels) and that alone discredits him.
Many of us are very well read when it comes to the Bible. We know that Jesus came to pit brother against father, bring a sword not peace, the subjugation of women, Mark 7:24 he calls a Syrophoenician woman a dog... God or not we (generally) don't accept that behavior. We don't see the washing away of blood with blood as a beautiful thing. It's a morality issue. I wouldn't follow Hitler if he killed his son as an apology either. I know that's offensive, but God admittedly killed millions. It's a viable analogy.
So an Atheist simply believes that there is no god, at all. I'm Agnostic, but don't see that as a door left open for Christianity. Even faced with the prospect of hell or heaven, I'd choose hell because it's the moral choice with my view of the Christian god as he describes himself. I don't need Joel Osteen to pervert my image of him. He does that well enough in his writings.
I appreciate your intent. The hope that you have in pulling us up to your image is nice. Thank you. Most of us simply don't see any evidence for how you view the world. We have hope, love, and live the life that we have to the fullest. We don't have to deny ourselves life's bounty today for what is unsubstantiated hope. The old what if you are wrong quote works both ways. Our children learn morality through us under the guise that no one will forgive them for not considering others. We live in the now and find it fulfilling.
I've taken too much blog space. Feel free to contact me any time. I'm happy to answer questions, but there is nothing to save here. I have no soul and I feel no despair from that thought. gaytor.rasmussen@gmail.com

Comment by SabreNation on April 16, 2009 at 1:38pm

Welcome Mike,

Firstly, the one simple concept that Christians (of any sect) fail to understand. Let me restated that - THEISTS of any sect, because it doesn't only apply to any individual sect of Christians, it is also the various sects of Islam, Judaism, Scientology, or whatever other ideology you choose to follow. The concept that is missed is that all of those people you're talking about right now? All those people that are going to burn in a "Lake of Fire" because they aren't following the one true way of the one true god?

They're all saying the exact same thing about you. There have been hundreds of varying religions, divide those religions into their individual sects (i.e Mormonism, Catholicism or Shi'ite and Sikh, etc) and that number baloons into the thousands. They all believe that it is YOU that will be burning for eternity and for the exact same reasons you said it is them that will burn. Because you're not following the "real" god. So, how do you know that YOUR religious sect of choice is the right one? To turn Pascal's Wager on it's ear - what if YOU are wrong? There are thousands of different views on the path to eternal bliss so how can you know yours is the right path? Because your parents or pastor say so? Well, all those other people that believe THEY are right and YOU are wrong also have pastors and parents who have told them that what your parents told you is false and what their parents told them is right.

Is it because of your Holy Book? Well, what about Muslims? They have their own Holy Book that says it is, in fact, YOUR prophet who is the false prophet - or rather just one of many - and it is your book that is wrong and their book that is right. If you had been born in Islamabad do you think you'd still be following the same religion? Of course you wouldn't, you'd be a devout Muslim. Probably saying the same things but saying them about the very people you now say are safe from God's wrath.

So how do you know YOUR religion of the thousands of possible paths to follow out there, is the right one?

I agree with you, however, on the singling out of Christians. I think the main reason it's so common on this site is because the majority of the users here are American and in America the most common religion that we butt heads with as atheists is some form of Christianity. I'm guilty of just singling out Christians in my anti-theism tirades myself, though it's a habit I'm trying to break.

Christians are not the enemy of atheists. It is THEISTS in general who are the enemy of atheism and our quest for reason in the world. To single out one group is wrong as all of them are equally guilty of the evils of religion. Spreading dogma, indoctrinating children, slowing the progress of science. All religions are equally guilty of these TRUE sins against humanity.

Comment by Laura on April 16, 2009 at 1:53pm

I second everything Gaytor and SabreNation said. You're making some pretty big claims, Mike. Where's your proof?

Comment by Rev. James Thomas Hicks, D.D. on April 16, 2009 at 2:05pm

And don't forget the ol' merciful quote from Jesus in Luke 19:27.

"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."

A lot of us here, as Gaytor has said, have spent a lot of time researchin' the Christian Bible. I can hardly determine what a true Christian is when I read the Bible. I've never seen one that can match up to the quotes & laws declared by Jesus, & Moses for that fact. I'm still gigglin' over the fact that unicorns once pranced 'round the Promise Land.

I despise Christians mostly because they don't live the life that they are suppose to by the Word of God. I understand all are with sin but, damn, your immortal soul is on the line. Get it together. And I feel if you're goin' to use the coming of Jesus to override the Mosaic Law then quit bashin' homosexuals. If it's okay to curse your parents now without prosecution, then leave the homos alone.

Comment by Michale K. on April 16, 2009 at 3:13pm

I’d like to reply to some of the comments. But another though hit me in regards to the Ipod comments. ITunes will not allow any other MP3 players to sync with its software. Only Ipods. So Be it a Black Ipod or a coloured one... you are allowed into ITunes Heaven... for the rest of the religions ummm I mean mp3 players out there.... sorry.

I know... I know... The heck with Steve Jobs there are better podcast and music management programs out there. I’m just working whit the Ipod Analogy that was presented

Gaytor.... I agree with you Jesus never did fulfill His prophecy in Matthew 34:24. In fact there was none... I mean unless you have a different Bible I can not seem to find Matthew 34:24 in my Bible. Can you site the passage? Unfortunately you kind of discredit yourself here. I’m sure its a simple mistake so I will wait for the propers passage before commenting.

Being well read about anything does not make you an expert. You can read the Bible all you want, but never understand it. You can read books about bicycling and even get a PHD and yet to ever balance himself on a Bike. God is real and so is his Holy Spirit... therefore I am sorry to say that head knowledge is not enough. Many of our so called christians are full of head knowledge... and are even Spirit Filled. But they have a different Spirit... not Gods. (2 Corinthians 11:4).

Mark 7:24.... Wow... you seem to make up meanings out of nothing. Jesus cast out a demon from a young woman's daughter. If this was your daughter and she was in pain and suffering... would you not want Jesus to heal her or is this the unacceptable behavior you are referring to? . Her faith was portrayed in this passage. Understandably, there are some difficult passages in the Bible... but this is not one of them. I do not think that anyone on this site would agree with your understanding of this passage. It is not about Jesus calling a woman a Dog. BTW.... did you hear about the dyslexic atheist? He does not belie in Dogs! ;-)

Gaytor, I appreciate your comments... but so far we have 2 strikes and no real meat to any of your arguments. I appreciate your rely nonetheless.

Sabernation... on to your comments;

Let me state clearly.... all religions lead to God. Yup every single one of the. Islam, Buddhists, Mormons, Catholics, Scientology and even the Religion of no religion of all. All of them lead to God the Judge, but only one leads to God the Father.

Many religions will make claims... even the infamous Spaghetti Flying Monster Guys. The question is what is Truth? How can you prove Truth. The answer is in the Supernatural works of Gods word in relation to Prophecy and The resurrection of Jesus Christ. Even if you were to claim His body was Stolen... the number of Old Testament Writing that told of Jesus life are beyond our understanding. I know man has changed the Bible to reflect Jesus Life... get over that. Literary experts have agreed on the authenticity of Bible....We have more manuscripts transcribed closer in dates than Homer or Plato.... yet no one claims those were somehow altered by “man” There are 200 + prophecies yet to be fulfilled regarding His second coming. Watch and be ready. Read Daniel and Revelations and then any newspaper and tell me you don’t see things lining up. Our Book is not Just a Holy Book... It is a Supernatural book. Any other religions making those claims? Did Mohammed raise himself from the dead? Heck... he is not even recorded as doing one miracle. Amazing... isn’t it?

I appreciate your Honesty in that sometimes Christians are singled out. It is not without merit. I am ashamed at the way some many so called Christians behave. Did you know that the persecuted church in China Prays for the “church” in America? They do nto want missionaries from America coming to them with a watered down perverted version of some prosperity Gospel.

If you would really like to learn about real christianity....you can search articles written by shepherds of the persecuted church or even read foxes book of martyrs. Very different information that what our earls are being tickled with in North America.

But for God I may have been an Atheist/Agnostic like you. The difference.... my roots were not pulled and went deeper and deeper. This is what the parable of the seeds is all about.

Lora.... any other questions?

Mr. Hicks...

Luke 19:27.... you do realize that you are quoting a parable? Let me ask you.... If someone rapes and kills you daughter.... what would you like as justice? What would satisfy you? What would satisfy the state you live in? What if they made a video of it and sold it for profit. You really don’t understand God do you?

Mr. Hicks... I like you despise Hypocrites. There are so many other sin we all fall short of... I agree that Homosexuals should not be in the spot light. However, I do not around parading my Heterosexual views.... why can they not live in peace. Why do they need to flaunting their sin. They have an agenda... and they by default are placing a target on themselves. Most of the guys pulling the trigger are false Christians. But in fairness... the Gy and Lesbians have brought the attention upon themselves and are fueling the fire.... they do not want it to go out.

I’ll be praying for your guys.

Mike

Comment by Pam on April 16, 2009 at 3:22pm

Can we agree define what an Atheist is and what a Christian is and what a Heretical Christian (wolf in sheep’s clothing) is.

Atheism

By definition, all atheists don’t believe in god. This is the position of implicit or weak atheism. So, by definition, all atheists are considered weak atheists. The difference is when gnosticism, or knowledge, is added to the belief. When an atheist claims to know that a god does not exist, that person is considered an explicit or strong atheist. Some atheists are weak atheists concerning all gods. Some are weak concerning most gods, but strong concerning a few particular gods. Some are strong concerning any god.

Christianity

I don't know how Christians define themselves because I'm not one of them. From what I understand, though, a Christian is someone who accepts Jesus as the messiah and attempts to follow his teachings to avoid sin. Christian's must also study the Gospels and pray to Jesus for forgiveness of the sins he sacrificed himself for.

It seems a lot like Benjamin Franklin's 13 virtues for achieving "moral perfection". He attempted to strictly obey these virtues, believing they would make him a good, honest, upstanding person. But he quickly realized he couldn't live up to the these virtues, even though he created them himself!

I think that setting yourself up against the moral standard of what you believe to be a perfect being (or a perfect man, in Jesus' case) will inevitably cause failure and self-reproach. I'm not saying we shouldn't try to live up to certain standards of virtue. We should. It makes us better people. But rather than assuming our failure to live up to these standards is a product of inborn sins we can never overcome, it's healthier to know that we can try again, that our failures are not met with wrath and disappointment.

[Sorry, it seems I got off on a tangent.]

Anyway, a "heretical" Christian might be someone who claims to follow Jesus' teaching but doesn't. It is exactly the same thing as your example of a proclaimed atheist spreading the word of god. He says he's an atheist, but he's not. He believes in god. She claims she's a Christian, but she's not. She doesn't even try to follow the teachings of Christ.

Do I have some sort of agenda in positing here…. YUP. To get to know you better and perhaps show you the odds are that you have really not had a true “Christian” experience.

There are atheists in China, Japan, and other nations where Christianity is not the dominant religion. I think you are assuming, at least partly, that many people become atheists because of a disillusionment with religion and Christianity specifically. People can look at a religion's followers and see that some of them act hypocritical, violent, mean, etc, but that does not give them a reason to abandon that religion (otherwise the atheist/agnostic population would be far greater).

Remember, an atheist is someone who does not believe in god(s). Obviously I can't speak for every atheist, but I imagine the belief that god does not exist was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. People can question their religion without leaving it, but once they no longer believe in that religion's deity ... there's nothing left of that religion to adhere to. Hypocritical behavior is just a piece of hay in a hay stack.

I'll try to address other issues you presented later, but I'm out of time for now! And, for real, wall of text much? You're tired of reading this anyway. :-P

Comment by Michale K. on April 16, 2009 at 3:31pm

Thanks Pam... enjoy your afternoon.

Comment by Nick on April 16, 2009 at 3:32pm

China, as a point of interest, is quickly moving toward being the largest Christian nation....and Muslim nation!

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