It seems like I may have given the wrong impression with my views on vegetarianism.

I haven't seen anyone eat meat in my life. Think about it. How many of you actually eat raw beef? Sushi may come close to it but that's still processed. Once something is processed it is not meat any more. It's a commodity- much like potato chips.

Animals don't go around killing each other just because one has more spots or stripes than the other. Carnivores don't kill more than what is needed. Animals in my opinion are far superior in every sense of the word than humans. They're stronger, have been around far longer than we have and have never complained us butchering them. (If it sounds too poetic, so be it.)

Humans living in harsh climates have every right to kill for survival. Survival is key. But my argument is for minimizing our impact. One of the biggest consumers of oil is the meat processing industry. It would only make sense to minimize our intake of meat.

Animals feel as much pain as we do (anybody who has been to a Cargill meat processing facility will surely be scarred for a week or so...). I grew up in a culture of animal sacrifice. I can safely say those who chop animals' heads and act as if northing's happened are some of the most cruel people on the planet. I'd suggest all of you to witness an animal slaughter and eat that meat later. If you don't cringe, something is wrong.

We're not the most important species around- just a failed mutation that has a huge probability of wiping itself out. It would only heighten our morality if we extended our respect to sentient beings other than us. If we don't need to kill them (there are vegan bodybuilders) I think we shouldn't. I fail to grasp the concept of having a pet if you eat meat. You can't think of eating your kitten, can you?

But that's what I think. I don't judge anyone but I do like to share my views. Almost everyone I know eats meat. But what bothers me is vegetarian options in restaurants being more expensive than regular meat ones. It's fu#!ing annoying especially since there's way more vegetables out there than meat!

Just my 2 cents on vegetarianism.

Views: 46

Comment by Prazzie on April 6, 2010 at 8:17pm
Think about it. How many of you actually eat raw beef?

I had raw springbok for dinner. Does that count?
Comment by B. on April 7, 2010 at 10:02am
Wow, I missed out.

I still regard the "pain & suffering" argument as not very strong.. just because animals are capable of feeling physical pain or experiencing fear does not automatically equalize them to human standing. I still think human beings are far superior to animals, and that is what earns them the right to deference. The idea that we all can hurt equally only promotes vegetarianism amongst those that value animals equal (or often greater) to human beings -- but what about those of us that don't subscribe to that thought? I acknowledge that it hurts a cow to be slaughtered, but I don't actually think that that is reason for me to go without steak and burgers for my entire life. Like I said, I don't believe in torturing any living thing for the hell of it, but I think physical pain of pain is merely a necessary evil in obtaining meat, and no reason to be deterred.

As for Neal's point of view, he's mostly right. While we're omnivores, our body's evolved to eat a much greater vegetable-based diet rather than the meat-based diet we subscribe to, so reducing your meat intake is expectedly healthier. Nevertheless, there's no reason to cut it out entirely. It's so enjoyable! I'm never giving up meat!
Comment by B. on April 7, 2010 at 10:03am
*bodies, sorry

that entire post is riddled with errors. It's early and I'm only having my first coffee now =(
Comment by B. on April 7, 2010 at 10:56am
I don't know, scientists have tried nutrition from a reductionist approach and it never works out well. Even when you provide someone with all the nutrients/vitamins/minerals that are found in a certain food, it still doesn't generate the same benefit as eating the whole food itself (they're not sure why this is but the assumption is that the nutrients confer an added benefit when consumed together due to synergistic interactions). I think the main point to take away from that is that you can't get away with simply checking off your daily-required-intake of one substance or another from a list.
Our bodies are far more dynamic than we give them credit for, and the nutritionists haven't cracked the whole code yet.

How will learning about the composition of your food be so boring and take up so much time, you'll miss out on enjoyment of your life..? I don't really understand that sentiment. It doesn't actually take that long to catch up to the new information being uncovered today. I don't think people are "not ready", they're just apathetic or lazy and flat out not smart enough to get it (not you, you're obviously intelligent -- the average person is an idiot)
Comment by Chetan D on April 7, 2010 at 1:13pm
I'm all for living longer. I know quite a few people who require meat because they have protein deficiency and the doctors strongly recommend it.

Shine is bang on with her large portions comment. I was in Houston a year ago for just one month and when I came back home which is Canada's Houston- Calgary, I had gained 20 pounds because although the food was good- I'd eaten too much. Lucky I'm healthy and in decent shape so it hasn't taken that much of a toll but this "bad fat" is hard to get rid of.

Apart from moral reasons, I do feel awesome after eating my greens. Also, rice is my favourite because when you're hungry and wanna eat THOUSANDS of something, nothing better. :D

You know whats awesome about this website? Despite all our differences and all this debate, no name calling, no cherry picking B.S. Sure, I've probably made some silly comments and others may have also, but there seems to be a strong correlation between thinking atheist and being sane and polite. Atheism is sexy!

Good stuff!
Comment by B. on April 8, 2010 at 12:43am
man real life really gets in the way of my enjoying awesome discussions on here.. I've missed a page. I can't catch up, sorry guys =(

Chetan, you're from Calgary? oh my heck is there ever a lot of Albertans on here!
Comment by Chetan D on April 8, 2010 at 1:08am
Hey B,

Yeah I am. Are you from the rival city? And I agree. School is a pain in the butt. And my schooling is still a longggggg a$$ way to go.

Hey, at least we all agree on something: An atheist raw meat eater is better than a religious vegan nutcase.
Comment by B. on April 8, 2010 at 10:26am
I think shopping at a farmer's market is the best way to access "real food". I think with grocery stores we've really lost the connection to who is providing us with sustenance (which is absurd, when you acknowledge how important food is).

Because organic/green eating has become so trendy, it's become more accessible which is awesome. My city holds multiple farmer markets, nearly year round, and I've found farmers to buy meat from directly. It can even be cheaper than the grocery store!
Comment by Chetan D on April 8, 2010 at 11:21am
Actually B., yeah, my parents do buy meat from the farmers outside of Calgary sometimes. They really are cheaper- and far cleaner too I guess.

49 comments!

I'm pleased. ^_^
Comment by Allen Sneed on April 8, 2010 at 12:15pm
Like B, I too have missed too much of this conversation to really contribute anymore. But I would like to address a couple of earlier comments.

It is nearly impossible to live one's life without causing some level of suffering to others. We might step on bugs or breathe in gnats. Fruits and veggies are sprayed with pesticides that harm animals. Even organic veggies are often sprayed with manure from factory farms. Due to the fact that factory farming has made animal byproducts extremely inexpensive, these things end up in just about everything including the computers we are using right now. But people who use these excuses to continue eating meat, dairy and eggs are missing the point. Veganism isn't about being perfect, it is about reducing the amount of needless suffering we cause others as much as is practically possible.

Yes, I could go live in the woods and eat twigs and berries and wear a surgeons mask so I don't breathe in bugs. But by removing myself from society I cannot help change society. By remaining in society and using computers and living a fairly normal life I am able to urge others to end their support for factory farms and thus am able to help prevent more suffering than I could if I lived in the woods as a "level 5 vegan."

The Vegan Society defines veganism as “a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude — as far as is possible and practical — all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans, animals and the environment.” Essentially, veganism is treating others as we want to be treated. It isn't about being perfect. It is about doing the best we can given the current state of the world.

Finally, to address Shine's comments. There is no way to humanely kill a healthy young animal. I assume you would want animals to be healthy when they are slaughtered to prevent diseases from entering the human food supply. And farmers aren't going to profit from keeping animals alive longer than they have to, so they are usually slaughtered as soon as they reach adult size or when their milk or egg production declines - usually at a mere fraction of their natural lifespans. So unlike natural predators that help strengthen the herd by removing the sick, old, injured or infirm, humans are actually mostly killing healthy, young adult animals for food.

The same is true for human hunting. Most hunters are trying to kill the bigger, healthier animals, not the weak sickly ones.

Since we can't use sodium pentabarbitol (like we do to euthanize ailing pets) to painlessly kill these animals because it would taint the meat, the animals are always killed by violent, painful ways. Animals who are shot with guns or arrows suffer - and they suffer needlessly. The babies these animals sometimes have may slowly starve to death without their parents. Sure, slaughterhouses in the United States are required to use captive bolt guns on mammals to "stun" them. But stunning is not required for the vast majority of animals (chickens and turkeys) who are slaughtered in this country, and stunning isn't always affective. According to Temple Grandin, the best slaughterhouses have a 95% effective stun rate, but most slaughterhouses have an effective stun rate that is closer to 45%. But even in the best slaughterhouses, a 95% stun rate means that literally thousands of animals are skinned and dismembered while they are fully conscious and able to feel pain. And for what? There is not nutritional need for humans to eat any animal products at all. So all of this suffering is needless. And we can remove the majority of our support for it very easily by simply choosing plant-based foods instead.

Since it requires less land, water and resources to grow crops, it actually helps the environment when we choose plant-based foods over meat, dairy and eggs. Nearly 80% of the agricultural land is used to graze farm animals or to grow crops to feed farm animals. More than half of the crops grown in this country are fed to farm animals. It takes about between 4-16 pounds of grain, soy or corn to get a pound of meat (depending on the type of meat), so growing crops to feed farm animals instead of humans is extremely inefficient.

Since less agricultural land is needed to grow crops for humans to eat directly, we can actually save more mice and other animals who are inadvertently killed in crop production by eating plant-based foods than we can by eating meat.

In short, eating less meat is a good idea. Eating non-factory farmed meat is a good idea. Adopting a diet free of animal products entirely is an even better idea.

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