Comment by Trevauhn Grant on October 4, 2010 at 4:42pm

@Kris how do you know my assumptions and faith is faulty? Do you know all things?

Actually, it isn't within his means. God himself saves that if he doesn't live up to his word then he will step down off his throne.

Kris, God made his motives clear when he sent his Son. He has made his motives clear in the Bible. He loves us. That's the bottom line. He loves. The Apostle Johns says, God is Love. It is not just something he does, loves is what he is. That is why he created free moral agents called humans. He wants us to share in his love. So even when I come on thinkatheist.com and get no love, I can still go and pray to the Lord (no special prayer needed) and receive love. I don't even have to pray at times and his love just shows up and comforts. You have no idea what a wonderful thing that is. Especially when no one else is on your side and you're left alienated. God is love and he loves us.

And you are correct, there are no logical means to place on my God's love. He loves and it just doesn't make any logical sense. but who am I to complain.

Comment by Trevauhn Grant on October 4, 2010 at 4:44pm

Sorry let me make that more clear.

It is clearly within the means of your god to deceive you on any level. Actually, it isn't within his means. God himself says that if he doesn't live up to his word then he will step down off his throne.

Kris, God made his motives clear when he sent his Son. He has made his motives clear in the Bible. He loves us. That's the bottom line. He loves. The Apostle Johns says, God is Love. It is not just something he does, loves is what he is. That is why he created free moral agents called humans. He wants us to share in his love. So even when I come on thinkatheist.com and get no love, I can still go and pray to the Lord (no special prayer needed) and receive love. I don't even have to pray at times and his love just shows up and comforts. You have no idea what a wonderful thing that is. Especially when no one else is on your side and you're left alienated. God is love and he loves us.

And you are correct, there are no logical means to place on my God's love. He loves and it just doesn't make any logical sense. but who am I to complain.

Comment by Kris Feenstra on October 4, 2010 at 4:50pm

Actually, it isn't within his means. God himself says that if he doesn't live up to his word then he will step down off his throne.

I don't think you get it. Who is going to make Him? Who can restrict God to His word? Certainly not you. Or do you really mean to suggest that God almighty, god omnipotent, lacks the power to lie? Lacks the power to do what any mortal man can?

Almost every con man pretends to have your best interest at heart -- just ask them and they will tell you.

Comment by Trevauhn Grant on October 4, 2010 at 4:55pm

@M The problem isn't lack of facts, because there are plenty of facts to back everything i've said so far. The problem is your desire. The problem with facts is those facts you're talking about were written by someone else. But what they wrote is contingent upon there belief. Because, how can you separate someone's belief from the way they do science. Two scientists can be looking through a microscope and interpret two completely different things because of their belief. So really the facts you believe in is simply someone else's faith. Now, its just a matter of whether that faith is misguided or not. This is the weakness of our flesh as humans. We have some levels of objectivity but I would dear not say full.

Comment by Kris Feenstra on October 4, 2010 at 5:02pm

Actually, maybe this will be more clear. You are able to talk directly to God in this scenario. You ask, "God, is your word true? Are you being honest with me?"

Possibility A: God is an honest deity -- God's answer would be, "Yes, my word is the truth."
Possibility B: God is a dishonest deity -- God's answer would be, "Yes, my word is the truth."

Q: How do you differentiate A from B based on God's answer?

A: You don't. You lack the means.

Comment by Bill on October 4, 2010 at 5:14pm

Salvation is free, it has always been free? If you have faith in Jesus and die tomorrow, only to find out there is no God then you would have lost nothing. If you die an atheist and you find out there is a God, you're stuck and there is no going back. Let's just say, I find it better to play it safe.

Ah, Pascal's wager again. Wasting your brief but entire existence chasing fairies in the hopes that they will sprinkle magic pixie dust on you is not what I would call playing it safe.

Comment by James on October 4, 2010 at 9:47pm

@James I have never hear a single piece of evidence to prove Jesus rising from the dead. Well I'm sorry sir that you are not up on your research. I guess you can google it or something.

I am up to date sir. I have searched and just did once more. Nothing even remotely scientific. Which of these claims are you saying proves the resurrection scientifically?

Your very basic atomic structure has a purpose, your cells have a purpose. Your arms have a purpose and so do your legs. And if you loose either one, you'll recognize the importance of their purpose right away. Just loose a thumb and the purpose of that thumb will become shockingly apparent.

You missed my point. Obviously many things have a purpose. But you seem to be directing toward an external purpose. Like "what's the purpose of life?". You would likely answer that there is a divine purpose to life. Whereas I will state that each persons creates their own purpose. But enough of that. We've discussed that at much length elsewhere on here.

Animals do what they do by instinct. Humans on the other hand have self awareness. So when we pursue, it can be either ambicious or greedy. One is good and the other is sin.

It's not impossible that that instinct could somehow he triggered in certain individuals. James, we are not animals. We are humans. We have self awareness. We know what love is. We develop relationships. We feel broken hearted when the relationship is broken. Animals don't even mourn the death of their own young. We are nothing like them. We far surpass them. We see beauty and we experience happiness. So when a mother sells her 2 year old into sex slavery, please don't give me the bull about instinct. That is sin. And the man who takes advantage of that child unto death is evil. Stop trying to pretty it up James, please. (James #2, this is what I was talking about as the dangers of naturalism). A spade is a spade. The reason why child sex slavery feels bad in the bottom of our stomachs is because it is bad. Its evil.

OK, it may be pointless discussing this with you, but we are members of the animal kingdom. We are simply evolved in such a matter that we are capable of living, doing and feeling as we do. But I'm sure you deny evolution so, this may go on deaf ears.

Second of all, animals do feel love, heartbreak, and the ability to live as a community. My cats show me affection, as well as affection to each other. Parrots and other animals can and have actually die from loneliness should they loose a close friend or if left alone while on a long vacation. There are many species who live in groups, use tools and have a social system and hierarchy. Monkeys that will outcast an individual who repeatedly calls a false alarm against danger for personal gain. Swans are monogamous and mate for life. Yes, some animals even eat their own young or even their mate. While there are many who defend their young to their own death. Such is the diversity of life. Some of our cousins in the animal kingdom simply share more in common with us than others.

No instincts in humans. You've never heard of fight or flight? Survival instincts when off in the woods? Maternal instincts? We do have instincts. We don't have to rely on them much anymore, granted. But I was in no way arguing that instincts in any way justify slavery, murder, etc. I will agree that these things are deplorable. But not because of a divine rulebook. It seems you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what those who look for natural explanations are looking to achieve. It's not to reduce everything to a natural ancestral world that returns us to the days of hunter gatherers. Rather, it's to find that natural causes and explanations, rather than relying on magical explanations with no foundation.

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