Ok, so just about a day or two ago these people from the old pueblo baptist church out here in tucson tryed to leave their little flyers on my doorknob.  I didn't see them put it there, but when I stepped outside the house I noticed the flyers on the doorknob.  So I just put them in my backpack, and decided to look at them later.  So then after awhile I decided to write a response back to the pastor about leaving that stuff on my doorknob.  Here's my response back to the pastor, it's a 7 page response to him.  I'll be labeling each page that I'm gonna be giving to him.

 

Page 1

Pastor Jon Shuerger,

I noticed you left some things from your church on my door.  I thought I'd take the time to address each of them individually.

 

-What do the news and the bible have in common?

Honestly, I'd say nothing.  There is a such thing as coincidences.

 

-Why is there such unrest in the Middle East?

Why?  Because most, but not all muslims think they have the one true religion, just like you guys think you do.  But I think your both wrong.  Alot of people would rather not talk reasonably and rationally about solutions to problems they have.  They'd rather rely on an ancient book that they think is true, but isn't.  In this case the book being the bible.

 

-What needs to happen before the return of Jesus Christ to earth?

I'd say nothing to that as well.  Alot of people think the end of the world is gonna happen on May 21st, 2011, I'd say that all of those people are wrong.  I'd even bet money on that, I can't lose.  How about what needs to happen before krishna can return to earth?

 

-Will the end of the world happen December 21, 2012?

Why are you looking to the mayans for that?  I'm confused on this one honestly.  Also, they've already debunked this.  The mayans never thought the world would end on that day.

 

-Do you know for sure that if you died you would go to heaven?

No, I don't know for sure that when I died I'd go to heaven.  But then again, neither do you.  No one does, heaven was invented by ancient superstitious people who were afraid to die.  I'm not afraid to die, it's a natural part of life.

 

Page 2

Continued....

 

Everybody has to die someday, that's just life.  Is that discomforting to me?  Absolutely not!

 

-Who has sinned?

No one has sinned, no one ever has and no one ever will sin.  Sin is nonexistent, sin was just invented by people to try to keep the masses obedient and in order.

 

-God's penalty for sin

Sin has nothing to do with death, death like I said is just a natural process of life, not because some deity pre-ordained it.  And who wants eternal life?  That doesn't sound good to me, I'm not the only one who thinks this way.

 

-Our salvation

Why would the death of one such person be enough to save a bunch of people?  Especially when, if god suppossedly made humans then god made people sinful on purpose.  I say that because god is suppossedly all knowing and all that.  So god knew humans would sin, and then blames them for being sinful even though it was god who was responsible for sin to begin with.  That makes no sense at all.

 

-The importance of one pamphlet

Where I spend eternity is not important to my one and only life I know I have for sure.  If there is an eternity, which I'd think there isn't, then I'll worry about that when I die, not when I'm alive.

 

-Man's disobedience

This is a ridiculous and fallacious argument!  How would adam and eve know what good and evil was if they hadn't experienced it first hand?  And why make a being that would sin to begin with?  Especially if god is supposed to be all knowing.  This makes no sense at all.

 

Page3

Continued....

So god knowing everything, and then blaming man and woman for sinning even though god being all knowing knew this would happen!  Where's the logic or lesson in all this?

 

-Penalty for sin

Spiritual death-That's god's fault, since god seemed to pre-ordain this by making a purposefully sinful being.

 

-Physical death-When we cease to function with an earthly body, I do think that is it.  And how do you know that this physical death is not the end?  Do you have evidence of this?

 

-Eternal death-So anyone who doesn't believe in god is going to hell?  So even if one was a charitable person in life, and was good to others practically their whole life, but said person didn't believe in jesus or god now they're going to hell?  That doesn't seem to make much sense?  Yet, I or someone else could've raped or killed someone but because I believed in jesus my whole life, then I'm ok.  How does this make sense?

 

-Man's obedience-How can one be 100% man, and yet 100% god, I don't see how that works?  So if jesus supposedly died for everyone's sins, then any sins that one has can just be passed off to jesus instead?  That's nonsense!  So one could commit a murder or rape someone, and that's a sin obviously.  Well, why would they then need to worry about answering to anyone here on earth since jesus would just forgive that person, since said person knew they'd be ok as long as they believed in jesus.  Does this make sense?

 

Page 4

-Way to heaven-How do you know heaven is perfect?  Have you seen it?  Do you have evidence it exists?  So once again we're faced with the conundrum of sin, hypothetically I could murder or rape someone and be ok because jesus paid that for me.  I never once thought that jesus or anyone died for sins I don't have to begin with.  And now all of a sudden satan is supposedly convincing people that jesus is the savior?  If satan is evil, why would satan do this?

 

-The prayer-"Dear jesus.  I know I am a sinner and that I deserve hell.  I believe that you died on the cross, paid the penalty for my sin, and rose from the dead 3 days later.  I am placing my faith in you alone to forgive my sin and save me.  Thank you for giving me eternal life.  In Jesus' name, AMEN."

 

So jesus(who is god) knows that I'm a sinner, because god is all knowing to begin with and created a sinful being in the beginning.  So god would send people to hell because they sinned which god knew about, so we're being asked to be forgived for something that god pre-ordained in us since god is all knowing, right?  Can you help to explain the logic to me?

 

-You can know for sure!-I don't think anyone in your church really thinks that the bible is god's unchaging word, I'll provide examples of this later on.

 

-Looking for hope?  Looking for peace? pamphlet-The one thing I can be sure of in this life, is that I do have a life.  I n which nature was my maker.  I love biology!  I learned quite a bit from it!  Nature is amazing!  I can be assured that my friends and family who I know are alive and who care about me is all I need in life, among other things.

 

Page 5

-The bible way to heaven

1-Recognize your condition-We aren't good enough, which obviously god knew since god is all knowing and made us sinful to begin with, I know my condition, I'm an imperfect human being.  So what?  Everyone is, that's just the way natural selection works.  Nature is indifferent to human suffering and the human condition.

 

2-Realize the penalty for sin-The wages of sin are not the cause of death.  It's humans dying naturally that's the cause of death, that's the cycle of life.

 

3-Repent of your sin-Agreeing with god about your sin?  That god was responsible for?  That's absurd!

 

4-Believe that christ died for you-What about hindu's who think that krishna died for everyone?  Are they out of luck then?

 

5-Trust christ alone as your savior-What if I don't want everlasting life?  What if I say to you that I'm happy with my life?  If you tell me, "oh well I guess your going to hell!"  Even though I'm a decent person(I think so), who never smoked in my life once, very rarely drinks, never did a single hard drug in my entire life, and I think I'm pretty decent to people for the most part, yet because I don't believe in jesus, i'm doomed.  That makes no sense!

 

6-Claim god's promise of salvation-I don't need salvation for a sin or sins I don't have to begin with.  My life is good, yeah I've got my problems.  But everyone does.

 

Page 6

The gospel of John and Romans pamphlet

I would like to share some verses with you which are taken from my bible I own a copy of.  I own a copy of the new living translation bible.

 

Genesis 1-It says on the third day that god made plants, seeds, etc..  Then we see on the fourth day that there's lights and such.  Well having learned in school that plant's run on photosynthesis, it's not possible for plants to grow and flourish without it.  So that whole day three in genesis is thereby false.

 

-Why are there 2 creation stories?-Yeah, why is there 2 creation stories that contradict one another?

 

Genesis 19:30-Lot and his daughters

Why doesn't anyone know about this?  Do you read this in your church?  I know about it, why don't your churchgoers know this?

 

Exodus 1-The israelites in egypt

Outside of the bible, where is the mention of israelites being slaves to egyptians?

 

Exodus 2:11-moses escapes to midian.

Just read it, why don't people know about this?

 

Exodus 7:20-Where is this recorded in egyptian history?

 

Exodus 11-Where in egyptian history is the death of every first born son of egypt recorded?

 

Page 7

 

Exodus 21-Fair treatment of slaves

So we're supposed to have slaves right?  That's what god commands, and there's even proper treatment  of slaves in Exodus 21.

 

Leviticus 15:16-yeah, ok? and 15:17-why isn't this being done?

 

Leviticus 18:6-It's not ok for anyone else to have sex with relatives, but it was ok for lot and his daughters?  I'm not promoting incest, i'm just saying.

 

Leviticus 20:9-So much for rowdy teens?

 

The ten commandments(specifically the 1st one)

Exodus 20:3-"Do not worship any other gods besides me."

Here is where I have a big problem, if the god of the bible is supposed to be the only god, the one true god, and all others are false, and god is all knowing.  Then god knowing this would have no need to say this commandment.  God would know that it(I refer to god as it) wouldn't need to say this.

 

There's plenty of other verses(too many really), that made me the way I am.  In case you can't tell, which you can probably tell, I'm an atheist.  If you think you'd like to talk to me more about why I'm an atheist, or about the bible then you can call me if you'd like.  My # is 358-8272.  My name is kunio.  If not then I'd respectfully ask that you don't leave anymore of your flyers on my doorknob, thank you.  By the way I live at billmar apts, #507.

 

Alright guys, so that was my long response which I'll be turning into that pastor soon.  I think I did a pretty good job, I didn't come of as rude at all I think.

 

 

 

Views: 39

Comment by Scarlette Blues on March 31, 2011 at 11:08pm

I think it was a pretty good response. I hope it causes whoever reads it to think about what they believe. Who knows...the preacher may just come to your door wanting to de-convert! lol

Comment by Reggie on April 1, 2011 at 7:17am
I find tracts like these to be quite fascinating and have commented on Baptists tracts before in a series of posts. I grabbed a bunch while attending a wedding. They were such obvious bullshit proudly displayed for adults to take, read, and actually take seriously. For even children to take it seriously is surprising.

http://www.thinkatheist.com/profiles/blogs/meet-the-baptists-part-1...
http://www.thinkatheist.com/profiles/blogs/meet-the-baptists-part-2-3
http://www.thinkatheist.com/profiles/blogs/meet-the-baptists-part-3...


At one point, I realized that Baptist logic had made me a god! But the craziest one one I have come across was not Baptist, I don't think. It was every bit as deluded, but had a layer of insanity to it that I just had to scan it and share.

http://www.thinkatheist.com/profiles/blogs/i-shall-return

I think responding to the pastor is great. Probably a waste of time, but maybe not? If anything, it may began to set a precedent for this pastor that his proselytizing will not simply be endured and humored. That there are people that will have the cajones to criticize these deluded beliefs and stand up for reality. It irks me to no end that the Christian practitioners cry persecution when they are not given special privileges, treated like everyone else, or are challenged in any way. Good on you, I say.
Comment by Cathy Cooper on April 1, 2011 at 11:16am

As I have taught and studied with seminarians, I can vouch for the fact many clergy are themselves atheists or agnostics.  It's hard not to be after being taught religion academically.  Once, I asked a bishop why he didn't tell his flock the whole truth.  He told me "The poor peasants don't need to know too much."--those that are learned learn many explanations for the various passages so they can attempt to explain away all the contradictions, etc.  It's why they stay away from stories like Lot and his daughters, or the passages in Ezekiel 23, or, my favorite, they ignore Matt 5:18-20, and focus on Matt 5:17--but they change the meaning "Humpty Dumpty style in an attempt to make it look like Jesus "fulfilled" the law so there is no law....when In Matt 5:18-20, he goes on to explain that everyone has to fulfill the law, or they won't see heaven.

 

You did a very good job, and I hope that pastor takes the time to read it.

Comment by Walter Maki on April 1, 2011 at 7:22pm

I like your letter Ryan.  De-convert him that would be a classic. lol

As for me I want him to return so I could face him. Of course I'd have to wipe the smirk off my face before opening the door :P

Comment by Reg The Fronkey Farmer on April 1, 2011 at 9:15pm

I have posted this a few times. Hopefully it is still helpful and not becoming tedious. It is a letter to a christian radio station.

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination... End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them.

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is, my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2. clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle- room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16.

Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your adoring fan,

Homer Simpson-Caldwell

 

Comment by Rosemary LYNDALL WEMM on April 1, 2011 at 11:20pm

I'd remove your address and telephone number from an on-line blog, if I were you.  Just use stars or dashes.  I know it's not your credit card number, but I'd be careful about giving this kind of personal information away to people you do not know and cannot trace. 

Otherwise, great letter :-)

Comment by Morgan Matthew on April 2, 2011 at 9:27am
Great letter. I have featured this post.

Comment

You need to be a member of Think Atheist to add comments!

Join Think Atheist

Forum

How do you cure Insanity???

Started by Belle Rose in Advice. Last reply by Belle Rose 15 minutes ago. 61 Replies

The Elephant in the Room...

Started by Belle Rose in Small Talk. Last reply by Belle Rose 45 minutes ago. 25 Replies

An awakening.....radical acceptance.....

Started by Belle Rose in Crime and Punishment. Last reply by Pope Beanie 3 hours ago. 2 Replies

Calling All Vaginas!

Started by Pope Beanie in Small Talk 5 hours ago. 0 Replies

Services we love!

We are in love with our Amazon

Book Store!

Gadget Nerd? Check out Giz Gad!

Advertise with ThinkAtheist.com

In need a of a professional web site? Check out the good folks at Clear Space Media

© 2014   Created by umar.

Badges  |  Report an Issue  |  Terms of Service