Comment by Nelson on January 28, 2009 at 1:24am

this is all fine and good and i'd support a remaking of our governmental system but only to something that could be shown to have at least the likelihood of being better than what we currently have. there's a lot of people complaining about how things are but until you can offer real viable alternatives it's just griping. and that's not to say that i don't sometimes gripe too without offering alternatives, we all do. but simply saying we have to deal with pollution/global warming is fine and all but how? simply saying that our health care system isn't working is fine but then what? (and why are you against universal healthcare? the best healthcare systems in the world are universal. they have drawbacks too, any bureaucracy will, but they are the best in existence)

so it's all fine and good to get your frustrations out by complaining about how the government's failed you/us but then offer real alternatives. for my part, though certainly there are things i'd change- the electoral college and the two party system to name a couple- overall it's still equal to or better than any other system. certainly not so much worse than any other system so that the huge upheaval caused by a revolution would be worth it to remake a few minor things.

the grass isn't always greener.

Comment by Sniz on January 28, 2009 at 1:42am

While I don't agree with you on some of your exact points, I agree with your overall. This country has some biiig problems. I feel sometimes that we are kind of on the brink of this "point of no return" state, and if we don't shape up, we will collapse from within. I do wish sometimes that the whole government system would get scrapped and we'd start over with something new.

Maybe it is the christians fault. Or maybe not, but it is fun to blame them...

Comment by chiz on January 28, 2009 at 1:55am

Well, that's why I noted that I didn't go into detail. It wasn't my intention to rewrite our entire government with this post, just to scream my protest.

I do have many ideas and thoughts on the matter, and maybe I'll post a few of the things I would change, in the "what if" scenarios.

Solving global warming wasn't the point though. If we have caused the earth to heat up, I doubt we could stop it now. I was simply saying that the methods GW fanatics are trying to force on us are the same things we should be doing anyways to clean up our environment. By working towards a cleaner environment, we appease the GW groups at the same time.

To the healthcare comment, I was saying that we might as well try the universal healthcare plan. It's worked in some countries and failed in others. Simply, we haven't tried it yet. At this point, we need to either move one way or another and right now, that is the only viable card on the table. That's what should happen next.
I'm not going to get into the details of why I'm no fan of a Universal Healthcare plan right now, but I will say it has a lot to do with our government. I think it's foolish to give them more power when they have abused what we have already given them. There is a lot more to it than just that, but that's one of the finer points.

All in all, I addressed your entire response in the final paragraph of my post.

I believe there need to be a lot more than a "few minor" changes but that's a completely different conversation.

Comment by Nelson on January 28, 2009 at 5:46am

i'm interested to hear from you what you think specifically is so broken that it can't be fixed at all under our current system and so the best solution is a back to the drawing board scrapping of the whole system.
that's what you're saying is required. i'm not disagreeing that there are issues. i'm just saying that that's not the way to fix them.

Comment by chiz on January 28, 2009 at 7:46am

Well that will take quite a bit of work, but I will work on it. I wouldn't dare make a post like that without providing all of my sources. I'll start building up my argument and I'll let you know when it's done.

Comment by Morgan Matthew on January 28, 2009 at 7:58am

This is Now Featured Chiz. Really good discussions/talking points.

Comment by SabreNation on January 28, 2009 at 1:44pm

I'd be interested in hearing your ideas as well.

My first reaction to things like this is to shake my head, it's very easy to say that the government is broken, very, very few people are prepared to offer ways to fix it. As far as the things you've brought up in this post itself:

1) Violent revolution ceased as a viable possibility for citizens of any modern nation right around the time tank warfare and fighter jets became commonplace in national armies. Violent overthrow of government is simply not possible in the modern world. A rifle from Wal-Mart isn't gonna do you much good when Uncle Sam comes rolling down your block in an M1A1 Abrams.

2) "Just fix the problem" is a nice thought with global warming but it's not that simple when a large chunk of our govenment still thinks it's not true. It's kinda like the argument about teaching creationism in science class. While most scientists agree it's a joke, creationism is nowhere NEAR being science and has no business appearing in a science class there is still a large chunk of the population and government that think evolution is just a "theory" and one that's being debated amongst scientists. Same thing with global warming. Again, it's not that simple.

3) Bush I agree on. There is absolutely *NO* reason to not have a full investigation into the actions and policies of the Bush administration. We're talking about possible WAR CRIMES here, the way the right acts you'd think it was something small, meaningless violations we're talking about. It's not, we're talking about GROSS misuse of executive power and direct violations of the Geneva Conventions. There is no debate to be had. There needs to be an investigation.

4) We will NEVER, EVER see Universal Healthcare in the USA. Period. Just erase the idea from your head. It will never happen. There are too many powerful, influencial politicians that are in the pockets of health insurance companies. Those companies that contribute hundreds of thousands to their campaigns would be obsolete if there was universal healthcare in the United States. For that reason said politicians will start screaming "SOCIALISM!" from the mountaintops anytime someone so much as MENTIONS the idea of Universal Healthcare and their gullible, uneducated constituants will follow along like the sheep they are.

I agree with almost everything you said. Unfortunately I'm also a realist and, as such, know that all of those things are much easier said than done.

Comment by chiz on January 28, 2009 at 2:19pm

Thanks for the comment.

1) Luckily, I didn't mention a violent revolution b/c you are right. That would be very foolish. Revolution comes in many flavors although history has only seen a few.

2) I thought I addressed this, but I'll clarify. "Just fix the problem" is in reference to pollution. I hope there aren't any politicians out there that will openly oppose cleaning up our environment. Typically, that is one point both sides of this GW debate will agree on. Why not use what we can agree on and move from there. I understand it it is easier said than done, but that doesn't mean we need to stop at the speech. We need to turn that speech into motivation for action. Some are doing it, but I think there needs to be stricter laws and rules about how we treat the environment. Littering should not be just a revenue builder for the local police department. I wonder if if would have a more of an impact on people who litter if they had to pay a fine and then have 20 hours of community service cleaning up the street they dumped on.

4) I'm not willing to say "never" to anything.
I understand your point, but I fall under the group of people who thinks that the government's sole purpose is to gain more power, not more money. When speaking of individual politicians, yes money makes a big difference, but I think the government's purpose, in general, is to gain more power first. UHC would do this. I'm not fortune teller though, so I'll just have to wait like everyone else.

The reason realists can say things things will never happen is b/c they haven't happened yet. Realists have been saying for decades that, "A black president will eventually happen, but not in my lifetime." Most of the people willing to admit that as even a possibility are still alive.

I'm a realist with hopes and dreams. The beauty of freedom is that I can scream my protest and rant about how I think the world should be. I can do this without any reason to expect that it can or will happen any time in the near future.

I could be wrong about all of this, but eventually someone doing exactly what I and so many others have done will gather enough followers to start the next movement.

Using history as my guide, it is obvious that eventually, America will be no more. What will take it's place? Who will rebuild it? I would like to think that it will be people like us.

Comment by SabreNation on January 28, 2009 at 3:36pm

1) Then what type of revolution do you suggest? In a perfect world, the American people could stage peaceful protests for sweeping change in the government and change things that way. In the real world the average American is FAR too lazy and unmotivated to do so. It would take people showing up by the hundreds of thousands, all across the country and as much as I'd love to believe that is possible I simply can't bring myself to do so. I can see no reason to believe enough Americans are willing to put down their cheeseburgers and remote controls to do so. Change without huge, sweeping protest won't happen, our government is way too tilted towards the 2 party system. Success for an outsider to those 2 parties is nigh impossible, at least on a national level. It would take sweeping changes to the ENTIRE system which again would require massive political protest which brings us back to the general laziness of the American public.

2) Again, not that simple. Massive amounts of the energy this country needs result in a large amount of that pollution - we need to rework our entire energy grid to "just fix it." Another large chunk is the result of the large tractor trailers we use to ship most of our goods around the country, we need a new way to move imported products from the coast to the middle of the country and vice versa for products made in the heartland. There is no simple fix for these problems, it requires a massive overhaul of our energy grid and the way we distribute products around our country. There is some bastion of hope in a new president who seems determined to make that happen but first he needs to get it through congress which is no easy task. There are many powerful corporations that would have to incur *HUGE* costs to make it happen which gets back to what I said about UHC.

4) Ah if only your power theory were true. If only... Sadly greed is a *MUCH* larger driving force than power for many of our country's politicians. Just look at how he Republican party attempted to smear Obama over his "support" for UHC. If your theory were true we'd already have UHC. It's not like nobody has ever tried. Hilary Clinton fought tooth and nail to get UHC in place. It didn't happen for reasons mentioned above.

Again I love what you're saying and I'm not trying to say it's totally impossible or looking to crush your spirit. More playing devil's advocate on the whole situation while expressing my own views. Hopefully everything you've brought up can and will happen. I just don't see it happening.

P.S. - I was one of the few realists who always said there WOULD be a black president in my lifetime. :)

Comment by chiz on January 28, 2009 at 4:35pm

1) The type you mentioned is possible. It has happened before, in this country, and hopefully, it can happen again. More people need to stop waiting for the crowd to start the trend, and create one themselves. Hopefully, Barack Obama will inspire more community organizers b/c they will be the key figures in this strange new world.

2) I know it's not that simple. As I said in the OP, my intention is not to map out the answer and rewrite society. It's to voice the opinion that it needs to happen. With that said, the things you mentioned would be some good starters. Change the way we transport goods, implement more of these new energy conservation methods, etc. Hopefully, Obama will get those through. Like I said before, I'm no fortune teller so I will not try to predict if this will or will not happen. I can only hope that people start volunteering change before we are forced to. Preventative maintenance should be taught as a standard of society... but it isn't.

4) We'll agree to disagree b/c unless you have a crystal ball, time can only tell us.


Well I'm glad. Instead of being a realist that tries to explain how things can't work, why don't you use your intellect to show the optimist a realistic way to achieve their goals.

Whether these things happen or not, it's apparent that our government will one day cease to exist. All governments come to an end. Our generation and those after us will determine in what manner that happens.

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