This came up in chat the other day and I wanted to add a couple things.

Oh, and before you both replying with "it's not that easy", I'll go ahead and tell you that I know it's not this easy. This is my argument for an ideal world. We don't live in that place yet; so, just let me bitch and complain about it... thanks.

It started with me accusing Obama of being "like the rest of them".
I'll go ahead and clear up a couple things. I know Obama has only been in office for a few days and no, I am not a Republican. I know, at least, a couple of you that will toss this up out of habit, but you're wasting your time b/c I do not apply. Disliking the Democrats or the government, in general, does not make me a right-wing nut. If you must flame, please be a little more creative.

For starters, I do not think that that Obama is directly responsible for the US's state of decline. He has less to do with it than most b/c of how new he is on the scene.
I believe that the government in general is responsible for this.

They are destroying the American dream. Whether this has been intentional or if it's just a part of the free market Democratic cycle, really doesn't matter to me. The fact is, it is happening, and I want it fixed.
I don't think we should settle for what we've been handed b/c there aren't any more hands to eat out of. We've passed the time of "finding ourselves" as a country. We looked for an answer in our government. We tried relying on them to solve the problem. We gave them the power and the money to cure what ails us... and at every turn we were burned.

No. We need to create ourselves; we need to solve the problem ourselves; we need to look past our differences and join together to show our government that we mean business this time. We want real change. Change that doesn't even come close to resembling what we have seen for the last 20 years. If we don't do that and we continue to further divide ourselves, we'll fall like the rest of them.

I want a new government and the only way to get that is by wiping the slate with the current set of politicians. If that means revolution, then so be it.
I'm under the belief that the only thing that will motivate this movement is a catastrophic event. Something that will touch enough of our lives that we are willing to ignore the lines that our government has drawn down the center of this country and unite together. We are so concerned about the left and the right... the conservative and the liberal, we've completely forgotten how to solve problems. All we know how to do is fight for our cause. Where's the compromise? Where are the give and take debates? What's the point of an argument if NEITHER can win? Why are we still flip flopping back and forth between policies depending on which party holds the office. This is ridiculous.

Global warming? Who flippin cares? Call it whatever you want, but we need to fix the pollution problem. Period. That will solve both sides of the debate. Does it really matter where the finger is pointing? Let’s play the blame game after we fix the problem.

Investigate Bush? The right is debating that it's a waste of time and the left is debating that it would violate a treaty with the UN signed by Reagan if we don't... I bet these suckers will still be debating the same thing at the end of Obama's first term. Should we investigate him? Sure, why not? Dedicate a few of the investigators we have trying to find out if man caused global warming to check it out.

Universal Healthcare? I'm against the idea, but for fuck's sake... just decide already. What we're doing now isn't working... so let's give it a try. It won't take long for us to figure out whether or not it's going to work. If it turns into another social security fail... well, we can just put it on their tab. They've already screwed us beyond all recognition.

Anyways, I'm just rambling now. These are just some of the things that go on in my head from time to time. I haven't added a lot of detail to each statement or backed anything up with link after link of sources b/c quite frankly, I don't need to. I'm not debating the issue with any of you (though the comments may invoke a couple responses from me); I'm simply telling you how I see it. If you don't know what I'm referring to in one of the more vague sentences, just ask. If you want to pick one of the things I've said and debate me on it, I'll be more than happy to go into further detail with you.


“A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within."

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Comment by Sniz on January 28, 2009 at 1:42am
While I don't agree with you on some of your exact points, I agree with your overall. This country has some biiig problems. I feel sometimes that we are kind of on the brink of this "point of no return" state, and if we don't shape up, we will collapse from within. I do wish sometimes that the whole government system would get scrapped and we'd start over with something new.

Maybe it is the christians fault. Or maybe not, but it is fun to blame them...
Comment by chiz on January 28, 2009 at 1:55am
Well, that's why I noted that I didn't go into detail. It wasn't my intention to rewrite our entire government with this post, just to scream my protest.

I do have many ideas and thoughts on the matter, and maybe I'll post a few of the things I would change, in the "what if" scenarios.

Solving global warming wasn't the point though. If we have caused the earth to heat up, I doubt we could stop it now. I was simply saying that the methods GW fanatics are trying to force on us are the same things we should be doing anyways to clean up our environment. By working towards a cleaner environment, we appease the GW groups at the same time.

To the healthcare comment, I was saying that we might as well try the universal healthcare plan. It's worked in some countries and failed in others. Simply, we haven't tried it yet. At this point, we need to either move one way or another and right now, that is the only viable card on the table. That's what should happen next.
I'm not going to get into the details of why I'm no fan of a Universal Healthcare plan right now, but I will say it has a lot to do with our government. I think it's foolish to give them more power when they have abused what we have already given them. There is a lot more to it than just that, but that's one of the finer points.

All in all, I addressed your entire response in the final paragraph of my post.

I believe there need to be a lot more than a "few minor" changes but that's a completely different conversation.
Comment by chiz on January 28, 2009 at 7:46am
Well that will take quite a bit of work, but I will work on it. I wouldn't dare make a post like that without providing all of my sources. I'll start building up my argument and I'll let you know when it's done.
Comment by Morgan Matthew on January 28, 2009 at 7:58am
This is Now Featured Chiz. Really good discussions/talking points.
Comment by SabreNation on January 28, 2009 at 1:44pm
I'd be interested in hearing your ideas as well.

My first reaction to things like this is to shake my head, it's very easy to say that the government is broken, very, very few people are prepared to offer ways to fix it. As far as the things you've brought up in this post itself:

1) Violent revolution ceased as a viable possibility for citizens of any modern nation right around the time tank warfare and fighter jets became commonplace in national armies. Violent overthrow of government is simply not possible in the modern world. A rifle from Wal-Mart isn't gonna do you much good when Uncle Sam comes rolling down your block in an M1A1 Abrams.

2) "Just fix the problem" is a nice thought with global warming but it's not that simple when a large chunk of our govenment still thinks it's not true. It's kinda like the argument about teaching creationism in science class. While most scientists agree it's a joke, creationism is nowhere NEAR being science and has no business appearing in a science class there is still a large chunk of the population and government that think evolution is just a "theory" and one that's being debated amongst scientists. Same thing with global warming. Again, it's not that simple.

3) Bush I agree on. There is absolutely *NO* reason to not have a full investigation into the actions and policies of the Bush administration. We're talking about possible WAR CRIMES here, the way the right acts you'd think it was something small, meaningless violations we're talking about. It's not, we're talking about GROSS misuse of executive power and direct violations of the Geneva Conventions. There is no debate to be had. There needs to be an investigation.

4) We will NEVER, EVER see Universal Healthcare in the USA. Period. Just erase the idea from your head. It will never happen. There are too many powerful, influencial politicians that are in the pockets of health insurance companies. Those companies that contribute hundreds of thousands to their campaigns would be obsolete if there was universal healthcare in the United States. For that reason said politicians will start screaming "SOCIALISM!" from the mountaintops anytime someone so much as MENTIONS the idea of Universal Healthcare and their gullible, uneducated constituants will follow along like the sheep they are.

I agree with almost everything you said. Unfortunately I'm also a realist and, as such, know that all of those things are much easier said than done.
Comment by chiz on January 28, 2009 at 2:19pm
Thanks for the comment.

1) Luckily, I didn't mention a violent revolution b/c you are right. That would be very foolish. Revolution comes in many flavors although history has only seen a few.

2) I thought I addressed this, but I'll clarify. "Just fix the problem" is in reference to pollution. I hope there aren't any politicians out there that will openly oppose cleaning up our environment. Typically, that is one point both sides of this GW debate will agree on. Why not use what we can agree on and move from there. I understand it it is easier said than done, but that doesn't mean we need to stop at the speech. We need to turn that speech into motivation for action. Some are doing it, but I think there needs to be stricter laws and rules about how we treat the environment. Littering should not be just a revenue builder for the local police department. I wonder if if would have a more of an impact on people who litter if they had to pay a fine and then have 20 hours of community service cleaning up the street they dumped on.

4) I'm not willing to say "never" to anything.
I understand your point, but I fall under the group of people who thinks that the government's sole purpose is to gain more power, not more money. When speaking of individual politicians, yes money makes a big difference, but I think the government's purpose, in general, is to gain more power first. UHC would do this. I'm not fortune teller though, so I'll just have to wait like everyone else.

The reason realists can say things things will never happen is b/c they haven't happened yet. Realists have been saying for decades that, "A black president will eventually happen, but not in my lifetime." Most of the people willing to admit that as even a possibility are still alive.

I'm a realist with hopes and dreams. The beauty of freedom is that I can scream my protest and rant about how I think the world should be. I can do this without any reason to expect that it can or will happen any time in the near future.

I could be wrong about all of this, but eventually someone doing exactly what I and so many others have done will gather enough followers to start the next movement.

Using history as my guide, it is obvious that eventually, America will be no more. What will take it's place? Who will rebuild it? I would like to think that it will be people like us.
Comment by SabreNation on January 28, 2009 at 3:36pm
1) Then what type of revolution do you suggest? In a perfect world, the American people could stage peaceful protests for sweeping change in the government and change things that way. In the real world the average American is FAR too lazy and unmotivated to do so. It would take people showing up by the hundreds of thousands, all across the country and as much as I'd love to believe that is possible I simply can't bring myself to do so. I can see no reason to believe enough Americans are willing to put down their cheeseburgers and remote controls to do so. Change without huge, sweeping protest won't happen, our government is way too tilted towards the 2 party system. Success for an outsider to those 2 parties is nigh impossible, at least on a national level. It would take sweeping changes to the ENTIRE system which again would require massive political protest which brings us back to the general laziness of the American public.

2) Again, not that simple. Massive amounts of the energy this country needs result in a large amount of that pollution - we need to rework our entire energy grid to "just fix it." Another large chunk is the result of the large tractor trailers we use to ship most of our goods around the country, we need a new way to move imported products from the coast to the middle of the country and vice versa for products made in the heartland. There is no simple fix for these problems, it requires a massive overhaul of our energy grid and the way we distribute products around our country. There is some bastion of hope in a new president who seems determined to make that happen but first he needs to get it through congress which is no easy task. There are many powerful corporations that would have to incur *HUGE* costs to make it happen which gets back to what I said about UHC.

4) Ah if only your power theory were true. If only... Sadly greed is a *MUCH* larger driving force than power for many of our country's politicians. Just look at how he Republican party attempted to smear Obama over his "support" for UHC. If your theory were true we'd already have UHC. It's not like nobody has ever tried. Hilary Clinton fought tooth and nail to get UHC in place. It didn't happen for reasons mentioned above.

Again I love what you're saying and I'm not trying to say it's totally impossible or looking to crush your spirit. More playing devil's advocate on the whole situation while expressing my own views. Hopefully everything you've brought up can and will happen. I just don't see it happening.

P.S. - I was one of the few realists who always said there WOULD be a black president in my lifetime. :)
Comment by chiz on January 28, 2009 at 4:35pm
1) The type you mentioned is possible. It has happened before, in this country, and hopefully, it can happen again. More people need to stop waiting for the crowd to start the trend, and create one themselves. Hopefully, Barack Obama will inspire more community organizers b/c they will be the key figures in this strange new world.

2) I know it's not that simple. As I said in the OP, my intention is not to map out the answer and rewrite society. It's to voice the opinion that it needs to happen. With that said, the things you mentioned would be some good starters. Change the way we transport goods, implement more of these new energy conservation methods, etc. Hopefully, Obama will get those through. Like I said before, I'm no fortune teller so I will not try to predict if this will or will not happen. I can only hope that people start volunteering change before we are forced to. Preventative maintenance should be taught as a standard of society... but it isn't.

4) We'll agree to disagree b/c unless you have a crystal ball, time can only tell us.


Well I'm glad. Instead of being a realist that tries to explain how things can't work, why don't you use your intellect to show the optimist a realistic way to achieve their goals.

Whether these things happen or not, it's apparent that our government will one day cease to exist. All governments come to an end. Our generation and those after us will determine in what manner that happens.
Comment by SabreNation on January 28, 2009 at 5:58pm
While I enjoy your optimism and would love to share it I'm afraid any optimism I had has been sapped by the last 8 years. Any faith I had in the American public was immediatly and completely drained the moment they re-elected George Bush. For every one person that thinks like me or you, there are 5 that just don't think at all - they let people like Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly do the thinking for them.

Like I said, I love your optimism and hope your right that these changes can happen but the longer I live and the older I get the more I reach the conclussion that the American public is just too damn stupid, ignorant, and lazy to make it happen.

I'm still holding onto a glimmer of hope that Barack Obama can be our FDR or JFK and motivate the people to enact real change but I have a hard time convincing myself to believe it will actually happen. I hope I'm wrong.
Comment by chiz on January 29, 2009 at 6:49pm
History also shows us that great leaders emerge in times of great need.

We'll see how things play out.

I would also like to point out that while you say you are a realist when it comes to this countries future, you are playing the optimist by joining a community with the goal of defeating the "God Delusion". Unless you are just here for the company. Just a thought.

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