Comment by Jin-oh Choi on April 19, 2009 at 3:29am

Thankyou for sharing and welcome to Think Atheist.

Comment by Nelson on April 19, 2009 at 4:52am

great intro! welcome.
i wanted to clarify somethings you said.
first you said, I don't need a mystical explanation for everything. but then you said, I believe that the energy we are must be out there somewhere when we die. and then you ended with, I don't believe that of course. I just wish I did.

when you say that you believe that the energy we are must be out there somewhere after we die, i agree that the potential heat and chemical energy that makes up our body either, in the case of heat, disperse through conduction and convection into the surrounding environment we found ourselves in at our death or, in the case of chemical energy, simply is returned to the earth eventually. what i can't agree with is that that energy maintains some semblance of self, of the consciousness of our former self. that's not what you were saying was it?

i wasn't clear on whether you actually believed that our consciousness survives our death as energy or not. if you do then in what sense is that not a mystical explanation for something? inasmuch as there's no evidence justifying that belief it is quite obviously supernatural and mystical.

Comment by Bleacheddecay on April 19, 2009 at 11:35am

Actually Nelson, I miss wrote. I should have said, I'd like to believe. I'd like to believe that the energy of our former selves joins a cosmic consciousness. I've love to think our former loved ones can be watching use tolerantly and fondly. That would be really great. I don't believe that though.

The pure energy of our animation though, that wouldn't be a mystical thing. That would be more of a scientific thing. We know energy doesn't just poof and go away. We know it can change form. We know it can also lose momentum and dissipate too. So the whole, what happens to the energy that is our being, (rather than the shell casing that are our bodies), is an interesting question I like to think about at times. I think something must happen with it. I'd like to know what.

No I don't believe our consciousness survives us. I just wish I could believe that because it would be very cool. It would be cosmic. It would also lend itself well to a reincarnation belief system. I've never been into that though.

Comment by Bleacheddecay on April 19, 2009 at 11:35am

Thank you Jin-oh Choi!

Comment by Gaytor on April 19, 2009 at 12:05pm

I think of the mid-west and I think that many... many people are in your position. As a consultant I don't wear my beliefs on my sleeve either in public. I'd never deny it, I enjoy discussing it, but to live life like a Dawkins in the business world doesn't work. Much as it wouldn't work for me to do business with someone who wanted to pray before we make a deal. So I understand your reticence to come out, even though it has to be unhealthy for both you and your son.
Don't worry about the hardcore atheists who want to pigeon hole your view of the world. It's a black and white view of the world not unlike religionists. Not unlike religionists it fails as it seeks to answer the unknowable. It's a statement of knowledge while in it's absence. Many have softened what an atheist is to suit their argument that no other non-believers exist. For those that care, they have an agenda to get you in their camp, even if it's simply to bolster their position. Non-belief is not defined by a set of doctrines. Life is not linear or black and white, you are not here for someone else's agenda so you get to believe as you wish. That's is the essence of Freethought.
Welcome

Comment by Bleacheddecay on April 19, 2009 at 12:33pm

Thanks for the welcome!

I'm actually in the closet for this and many other reasons. I'm just not a mainstream person. LOL.

Growing up I found it helpful to figure out what others wanted me to be and to become that. It was a survival thing. It worked well one on one. Around the time of my high school graduation I found myself in a room full of people who all saw me as different things. That's when I began to develop my own me-ness and integrate.

I want both my children to be able to live out lives without fear. I realize that I've constructed an "in" life. It never used to bother me but now with a gay child it really chafes. So for my child's sake I'm ready to be more out so my kids can be.

Comment by l roberson on April 19, 2009 at 2:17pm

I totally understand where you are coming from..bible belt, surrounded by christians, who, in my opinion, spew hate daily. A pastor came in during the election and actually was hoping that people were more racist than they were admitting so Obama wouldn't win.. What? Really? Anyway, I was raised in the church, baptist to be exact. Even taught sunday school and bible school, or, as I like to call it now, Brainwashing School. My brother is gay and left the state in order to be able to be himself and, hopefully, live without being in fear of people knowing who he was. I have 2 close friends of my children and myself that I worry about. They live in a small community, are gay, and I know there are people that would hurt them if they knew. One is more open, but the other is trying to keep his job..the people he works with openly talk negatively about gay people. So..trust me..I GET IT! I'm new here, too, btw.

Comment by Nelson on April 19, 2009 at 2:56pm

thanks for clarifying that! we're much closer to being on the same page i think. my one thing keeping me from being totally there is when you talk about what happens to the "pure energy of our animation". what exactly is "pure energy"? is that as opposed to unpure energy? that to me sounds very mystical- rather Deepak Chopra-ish.

our consciousness is a matter of electrical and biochemical impulses and interactions in our brains. the electrical activity winds down gradually and dissipates after the heart stops. the chemicals that make up our body, including the chemicals that govern and allow for the brain's processes, including, of course, consciousness, these chemicals, if you're cremated, much of them get burned off as exhaust and returned to the earth while the rest either languish in an urn or, in the case of the ashes being sprinkled by the family, they too get returned to the earth. if, on the other hand, the body gets buried, much of the chemicals remain in the casket, provided the casket stays sealed; not a foregone conclusion since the gas that builds up from decomposition has been known to blow caskets apart. regardless, the energy does dissipate, it just does so in decidedly non-mystical ways.

energy can also change form, as you say. it can change from chemical to heat energy, from potential to kinetic energy, from electromagnetic energy to heat, etc. according to Einstein, and proven repeatedly, energy and matter are equivalent and so, as in nuclear explosions, matter can turn into massive amounts of energy. this is also not mystical.

however, talking about the pure energy of our animation, of our being, and describing this energy as going somewhere unknown to us does sound rather mystical. again, what is "pure energy", in what sense does this "pure energy" represent our "being"? since we know full well that the energy dissipates through electromagnetic radiation, in the case of the electrical impulses, through conduction and convection, in the case of heat, and, in the case of the chemical potential energy that makes up our bodies, the energy simply gets returned back to the environment, what is there really to wonder about regarding the electrical, heat, and chemical potential energy that makes up our bodies?

Comment by Rev. James Thomas Hicks, D.D. on April 19, 2009 at 3:42pm

I understand where you're comin' from when you say you'd like to believe that our conscience is out there when we die. I struggled with that for a long time after my father killed himself. Here I am listenin' to my family sayin' he's in a better place, knowin' full well what they really believe, just tryin' to ease my mind.

I know it is probably silly of me but even to this day, bein' that I've been an atheist the mass majority of my life, I still go outside at night & look to the stars & talk to him. Hopin' that he's out there listenin'. Sometimes I swear I can feel him, but that is what wishful thinkin' can do to anyone. Especially to the religious types. Faith can really play with your mind. As far as they are concerned, I couldn't possibly feel him since he's in hell. Another reason I know that faith is a crock. If I can feel it & they feel the same way when it comes to their god, it must be bollocks.

Comment by Bleacheddecay on April 19, 2009 at 8:10pm

Nelson,

Yes, we are on the same page. I can wish for things that I don't believe though.

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