Comment by Adva on February 26, 2009 at 3:33am

[This is the first post I'm reading here (just joined), so I can only assume it was actually worth editing, though it's quiet interesting as it is].

I agree with most of what you wrote - atheism has to fight sometimes, because atheists suffer from discrimination, even if nowadays we're not persecuted - only in some parts of the world, though!
Also, some atheists are dicks, as you said, others are not. But exactly because we're fighting, I DO think that an efficient strategy is necessary. Just like feminism can't succeed when people hate feminists. It doesn't mean feminists or atheists have to be "nice"; it does mean that respecting your opponent is a more efficient strategy than showing disdain. The content should remain untouched; it's how we present it that is crucial.

Adva
http://ripplespark.blogspot.com

Comment by AtypicalAtheist on February 26, 2009 at 12:02pm

Some Atheists that would be defined as "militant" by many people:


Penn&Teller
James Randi
Pat Condell (That awesome youtube star, google him)
Sam Harris
Ayaan Hirsi Ali
The Infidel Guy
Christopher Hitchens
Salman Rushdie
Carl Sagan

These are only a few of the many, but it is no coincidence that it is always the so called "militant atheists" the atheist swilling to get up and go out and do things for Atheism that are the ones that accomplish the most for atheism.

There is no such thing as a "professional atheist". Someone who's only advantage is that they are an Atheist is someone who isn't much of anything. Being an atheist in and of itself doesn't equal accomplishment or knowledge or sophistication or refinement. This is a fallacy.

Another fallacy is the idea that atheism has some automatic advantage over christianity or islam or scientology. This has been proven historically false and simply does not work in reality. The only way that Atheism can spread is if it is pushed by atheists themselves. Otherwise the other side will push it out of the picture. Society doesn't always progress, when fanatics take over and when we give up what we prize most, and become idle and apathetic then society will indeed take steps backward. It has happened before and it can happen again.

Comment by Johnny on February 26, 2009 at 12:42pm

Nice write-up Leland; reminds me a little of an article recently post on HeavingDeadCats.com.

On one extreme, you have fundamentalists who blow themselves up in bus stations or kill doctors in clinics for thinking differently than they do. Then there are tons of people in the middle. On the other end you have … well, the thing is, I can’t really think of anything that extreme for atheists.

Let's go back to hypocrisy and talk about fairness and honesty. Dawkins and other atheist proponents use science and philosophy to put forth their ideas in clear arguments that are rational and thoughtful. Yes, they question the status quo. Yes, they don't like religion. I don't either.

On the other hand, my experience with christians is underhanded, unfair, fallacious, hypocritical, and manipulative; aggressive arguments that are based on trying to bend the person to their beliefs through fear and thoughtless obedience. They rely on logical fallacies, bullying, fear tactics and pure hypocrisy to fight as nasty as possible. It seems to me that they believe the means justify the ends, and if they save a soul for their god and win someone over, it doesn't matter how unfair their tactics are.

I do think atheist need to push the envelope sometimes; but realistically are there extreme/fundamentalist/militant atheists? AtypicalAtheist names a few of the more prevalent names above, but none of them are starting wars for atheism, none are flying planes into buildings or bombing clinics, none are spouting deceptions and hypocrisies in the name of atheism. On the scale of things, there might be some who are a notch or two away, but I tend to think there really aren't any that make the full end of that scale to be classified as extreme/fundamentalist/militant atheists.

Comment by AtypicalAtheist on February 26, 2009 at 12:45pm

That's because the real atheist's goal is to educate people on atheism. Flying planes into buildings or blowing people up doesn't accomplish this. It's immoral and unproductive.

Comment by Adva on February 26, 2009 at 12:50pm

Why is it the atheist's goal to educate others? I for one don't see it as my goal (although I'm currently writing a book about atheism, and still, it's not intended to convince anyone that atheism it's true). If religion would not have influenced my life in ways it shouldn't (and there is actually no way in which it should), I wouldn't have cared one bit what other people think. It's their right to hold what I see as mistaken beliefs. So the problem is political, not ideological.

Comment by Adva on February 26, 2009 at 12:51pm

I meant of course: "... to convince anyone that atheism *is* true"

Comment by Johnny on February 26, 2009 at 1:23pm

I think "convincing" religious people is not for everyone Adva; but some do feel driven to it. Many people have been so burned by religion that once they have escaped it, they have that drive and need to 'help' others free their minds.

Personally I find the most satisfaction in presenting arguments and facts up to the point where said religious person starts to have questions of their own, and then pushing them down the path to do some research of their own.

Many religious people have huge misconceptions about atheism, and as AtypicalAtheist points out we need to educate people about atheism as the first step to overcome this. Additionally, to truly win over someone from religion to a state of freethinking, agnosticism, or atheism, the best way to do it, the truest way to make it stick, is to educate them.

Comment by Frink on February 26, 2009 at 1:31pm

I'm a militant atheist. I tend to be detrimental to religion :D

Comment by Adva on February 26, 2009 at 1:31pm

I completely agree with "Many religious people have huge misconceptions about atheism" (that's why I'm writing my book, BTW), and also that educating is always a blessing, this case included. Also, I'm quite familiar with the drive you describe; I just don't feel it myself. Perhaps I wasn't burned enough (lucky me!...) :-)

Comment by Pam on February 26, 2009 at 2:14pm

I couldn't care less about "converting" people to atheism. If they decide not to believe in god, then that should be a freely chosen belief, not something forced on them and proselytized.

However, I believe correct information about atheism should be available, and we should attempt to revise the misconceptions people often have about us.

And when we feel marginalized we should be able to take actions against that without fear of being unfairly labeled as "militant", but it seems that any action taken by atheists sends up an automatic red flag of militancy. If speaking out against discrimination and misinformation is considered militant, then that label needs to be applied to many other groups of people besides atheists.

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