Comment by Sagacious Hawk on December 11, 2012 at 4:00pm

I think in this case, aggressive is synonymous with winning. Besides, there isn't anything wrong with being aggressive in the first place. As far as I'm concerned, the opposite of aggressive is meek.

But are you being aggressive? Eh, that's really in the perception of the observer.

Comment by Strega on December 11, 2012 at 7:50pm

I think all the points and counter-arguments you have made are well thought through, and logical and empirical.  You express them well, too.

The problem is simply that I don't think you can counter faith with logic.  They are like two parallel highways, or two separate languages.  A vociferous theist, to my mind, is one who is scared that their theism might be 'taken away' from them. 

As far as whether you have a right to be aggressive when other people make assumptions about your 'soul' or any other assumptions really, perhaps you should consider asking yourself why you actually care. 

Comment by Laney on December 11, 2012 at 8:33pm

has anyone read that book "heaven is for real"? Does it not seem like the parents are really cashing in on their son's near-death experience?

Comment by Helen Pluckrose on December 11, 2012 at 8:34pm

I think its important to care what assumptions large groups in society claim to be truths for humanity as a whole especially when, as in my country, England, they do so in schools and parliament.

Comment by Strega on December 11, 2012 at 8:41pm

I'm a Brit, Helen, from London, which is predominantly non-religious.  Nobody ever talked about my soul in school.  There are specific religious denomination schools, Catholics fund quite a number of them.  But in over 50 years I have never felt the tiniest bit of religion being 'force fed' to me either in school, the workplace or anywhere else.  You should try living in the USA if you want to see religion at its ghastliest!

Comment by Helen Pluckrose on December 11, 2012 at 9:27pm

I think you have been lucky Strega. If you have a look at my profile you will see I am an active atheist because my daughter is seeing a psychologist now after being told at five that God flooded the world, turned rivers to blood and killed all the first born sons and that he still existed and should be worshipped. At school. Yes, her best friend came out of the same class quite happily singing 'The animals came in two by two hurrah, hurrah' and she came out crying and saying 'Couldn't the mummies swim with the children so they didn't drown?' and then she had nightmares about God doing it again and kept asking 'How do you know its not real? Mrs Dalby said its real and she's a headmistress' and then she had panic attacks and then began to self harm. She's doing a lot better now, since we've looked at lots of religions and she has decided none of them are true but she still gets scared sometimes if someone mentions the Christian god.  Its just a state school and the headmistress told me she has to, by law, make assemblies broadly christian and include prayers.

My husband managed to go through school without ever thinking about God but I also became very worried by the idea of this immensely powerful mass murderer as a child and my daughters counsellor tells me that it is not uncommon. She deals with childhood anxiety and has several children with this fear at present.

  I really do think its essential to stop telling children in schools stories about Noah's ark etc because the ones who think deeply about things will find this deeply disturbing. Or at least point out that global genocide is a bad thing. Its so ingrained people often don't see it - they even do Noah's ark shape sorters, for goodness sake! Imagine if someone tried making a child's toy based on concentration camp gas ovens? Everyone would be outraged but global genocide in the form of flood is completely acceptable because we are so familiarised with it culturally. Well, children aren't. If, like my daughter, the first information they receive about God killing everyone is from a teacher whom they have been taught to believe,  some will imagine how terrifying that must have been and have nightmares. My daughter genuinely feared for her life for several months.

If you think back to your schooling, perhaps there was no talk of your soul or hellfire directly but were you not told about Noah's ark and God parting the seas after killing all the Egyptian children? Were you not told that God watches over you? Made to sing 'All things bright and beautiful - all creatures great and small. The lord God made them all?' I suspect that whilst you were happily letting this flow in and out of your mind, another child in your class was terrified and having nightmares.

Comment by Strega on December 12, 2012 at 11:36am

That sounds terrible, I'm sorry your daughter has been made to feel anxious.

I vaguely remember a jigsaw puzzle with the animals as solid wood pieces, the only one I remember well was the giraffe.  Noah's boat looked just like Captain Pugwash's.  We did sing hymns at assembly, and the head teacher would read some kind of sermon, or chapters from a book - I was riveted to the excerpts from Anne Frank's diary.

I wonder if the fact that the seven or eight Jewish girls used to sit it out in the lecture theater during this process, and then file in to the hall to hear the school notices helped dispel all that Christian stuff.  I asked why they didn't have to come to Assembly and was told their religion differed.  Once I grasped that there were other beliefs, then the Christian one just became an option I didn't require.  I was 7 years old - that would be 1966.

Nobody ever mentioned heaven or hell. 

Sure I sang along in assembly, but that was because I liked singing.  There was a School Prayer we were meant to memorise (which I didn't) and the Lord's Prayer, which had something about bread in it, in my mind at the time, and was also just something to mumble along to.

All this was nearly 50 years ago.  As an adult, when comparing notes with mates, only the ones that went to catholic schools run by nuns seemed to get an overdose of religion, and the nuns were so vile and violent, most of the kids hated them and all they stood for.

I think you should go into the school, meet the teacher and instruct her in what you will and will not permit her to teach your children.  Point out the consequences and tell her she is lucky that you don't plan to sue the school for causing your child to need treatment.

Comment by Dale Headley on December 12, 2012 at 4:08pm

I never initiate a confrontational debate with Christians; their beliefs are of no concern to me.  However, if they attempt to force their nonsense on me, all bets are off.  

Example: a science teacher of my long standing acquaintance does not believe in evolution and refuses to teach it because it offends her religious sensibilities.  She despises me because I once pointed out that the California Education Code requires that evolution be taught.  If I had a child in her school who couldn’t be transferred to a REAL science class, I would be aggressively in her face all the time.  

Recently, I had indirect contact with her through a third party, and I said she didn’t teach evolution because she didn’t understand it, which she doesn’t.  She informed me that she DOES understand it, but it doesn’t make scientific sense to her.  So I compiled a 20 question evolution quiz - questions on aspects of the theory that must be understood if one were to be considered even marginally knowledgeable on the subject.  I sent the quiz to her and challenged her to prove her knowledge and expertise.  That was two months ago.  I’ve received no response.  She not only didn’t know any of the answers, I’m sure, but had no desire to research them, either.

Yet another science teacher from the same school also refused to teach evolution (most teachers don't).  But he is retired, now, and doing no damage, so I don't confront him.  I did, though, when he was teaching. 

Bottom line: there are times when it is appropriate to be aggressive, and times when it is not.   

Comment by Helen Pluckrose on December 16, 2012 at 3:01pm

Suddenly my daughter's school seems a little better! This year's teacher is an atheist and his degree is in evolutionary biology so I'm less worried.

I agree very much that there is a time and a place for aggressively arguing your point of view. This is largely why I do it online - I find Christians who want to argue. Well, they seem to want to argue cos they write something attacking atheism. They then say I am intolerant for disagreeing. Should have specified before, I do not go to Christian forums and break into conversations. I argue on sites for all faiths and none and I have google alerts out specifically for criticism of atheism and evolution. Some of these are from Christian blogs  but really, if you are gonna write an essay entitled something like ' How to persuade a young friend Dawkins is wrong about evolution' or ' Why atheists don't really exist' and post it on the internet, what do you expect? I am never rude but answer as I indicated above. I really do think people claiming all sorts of nonsense for other people as well as themselves should expect to have to defend it. 

I do take your point about US, Strega. I seem to argue mostly with Americans on Twitter and Yahoo Answers. They make our Christians seem very tame and I realy feel for American atheists especially in the South. Recent election results and stats on young people's beliefs very encouraging tho. 

Comment by Reg The Fronkey Farmer on December 16, 2012 at 3:27pm

A complete stranger will knock on my front door and tell me that his truth is the one and only truth. It is the “real TRUTH”. This implies that everything I understand or that from the pillars of my reality is wrong. So rather than me just throwing all that in the bin after spending most of my life developing it and accepting his word that he is right I will question him.

So I do and as usual I discover not only is what he saying preposterous but that he has no evidence for any of it. When I tell him “Sorry you may be correct but I just don’t believe you” he will then proceed to attempt to dismantle what I believe the Truth to be by presenting me with the most skewed and pathetic understanding of Science that I start to wonder if we are from the same planet. He will eventually leave but not before he gives me that line about me being a fool because I say in my heart that there is no god (which I have not actually said). So he will insult me on my own front door and then get annoyed when I challenge him and still demand I respect his views. He will then tell me I need to learn some humility. WTF!!  

So don’t ever wonder in such cases if you are right to aggressively challenge their claims. Take no prisoners ever.

My favorite at the moment. It was his first anniversary yesterday.

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