Is government a more powerful force than love?

I didn't join this site to take other people's words out of my mouth.

I attempted to emphasize the importance of love amid the current trend of legalized gay marriage. I'm not anonymous, so anyone can go to Facebook to verify my support of my gay friends' new marriage intentions.

Marriage is a much older religious institution than a governmental one, and marriage is younger than love. Tell me ThinkAtheist, does law matter more than love?

Views: 219

Tags: andy, atheist, gay, hoke, law, lgbt, love, marraige, religion

Comment by kris feenstra on May 25, 2014 at 1:33am
It's not about what's more powerful. It isn't about what matters more. It's about facing real world problems. Your urging in the thread was insipid and patronizing.
Comment by Gallup's Mirror on May 25, 2014 at 3:32am

I attempted to emphasize the importance of love amid the current trend of legalized gay marriage.

As I write this, you have yet to mention (let alone emphasize) love in the other thread. Not once. Your first and only statement on the subject of "legalized gay marriage" was:

"I'm glad that the LGBT community is excited [about the good prospects for future Supreme Court rulings on same-sex marriage]. However, I urge the excited to care less about what government and religion care about your lives. Religion and government are merely temporary popular traditions."

You could post in the old thread and elaborate to clarify a point poorly expressed in haste or express regrets for putting both feet in your mouth.

But no.

Instead, you're starting a new thread, changing the subject, and falsely restating your inane comment from the old thread, where you're tacitly defending it by blaming others.

Not too impressive, Andy.

Comment by Strega on May 25, 2014 at 11:32am
You're comparing apples and pears, Andy. Love is an emotion and laws are a man made construct. You might as easily compare happiness to a watch mechanism. What points of reference would you compare to assess the merits of the two disparate items you selected?

Love gave me my wife. Laws have now changed to enable me to cohabit ate with her. I am really at a loss as to what underlying point you are trying to make. Love wasn't enough to allow cohabitation, we needed laws to change to enable our love to flourish.
Comment by Oluwa-Shola Aiyenuro on May 25, 2014 at 11:25pm

They preach Love, and yet deny some people the right to love and be happy. No man has right to hold a person's personal freedom. I believe everyone do what they like and how they do it shouldn;t be anyone;s business.  I support what ever makes the couples happy.  Because that where they all find own peace of mind.

Comment by Andy Hoke on May 26, 2014 at 12:57am

I'm currently operating at a surplus of ignoratio elenchi.

Again, I find myself curious. I'm a little confused by, yet interested in the thoughts of others. Under these circumstances, I am inclined to perform some research, which consists in part by asking questions. Call it sociology.

I ask a question, and I attract ire. They say that philosophy is questions which may not be answered, and religion is answers that may not be questioned.

Apparently I have been questioning answers which may not be questioned.

In an attempt to emphasize the importance of love in the human experience, I advocated what I believe to be humanity's greatest quality. My bad.

It seems I have confused atheists with freethinkers.

I'll probably weigh in for a few minutes once a week through the summer (whether you like it or not), then I am done with this 'community'. If this group isn't that interested in love and the quality of life for humans, if this group worships law and substitutes Al Gore for John the Baptist, I really can't see this site as a terribly good use of my time. It's a big internet.

I know that homosexuals have a cause to celebrate. What government now makes of this religious institution is a big deal to you, right? That's cool, I'm happy for you, but to celebrate a religious institution seems fairly odd on an 'atheist' website. Just sayin'.

Comment by kris feenstra on May 26, 2014 at 3:10am

Apparently I have been questioning answers which may not be questioned.

No, your very first comment in the original thread showed a lack of understanding of the issue being discussed. When that was pointed out to you, you sulked about being misunderstood, but the initial misunderstanding was yours.

Apparently I have been questioning answers which may not be questioned.

In an attempt to emphasize the importance of love in the human experience, I advocated what I believe to be humanity's greatest quality. My bad.

The problem isn't that you question which is more important between love or government; the problem is that you've attached the question to people who were never pitting the two up against each other in the first place. LGBT people already know about love. In my time (and nation), I've had it good in that LGBT rights are well supported, but even so, gay bashings and harassment still occur along with 'moral' religious folks petitioning against my rights and politicians who still agree with them. Historically, even in my lifetime, things were much much worse, and in other areas of the world, there are still many brutal challenges faced by queer people.

LGBT people have found and pursued love against all odds. Not all queer folk have placed love as a priority -- as with heterosexual, not every LGBT person is going to care much for love or sappy romance --, but enough have risked a great deal just to be with the person they held most dear, even when facing violence and discrimination. The love part has been understood and been fought for already. We get it in spades, but that doesn't mean that battles against discrimination don't still need to be fought both for practical and principled reasons.

I know that homosexuals have a cause to celebrate. What government now makes of this religious institution is a big deal to you, right?

Incorrect. What the government thinks of religious traditions isn't all that important. Marriage is at its core a civil contract, not a religious institution. For those who are religious, it's cool that they can throw God into the mix like a cherry on top of a sundae, but it is just a cherry, not the sundae itself.

The point of this fight is twofold. First, the obvious goal is to secure the legal rights enshrined in marriage for same-sex couples. Second, though perhaps not all share my views on this, the underlying principle is that rule of law and principles of equality are more important than what governments or religious institutions think. The legislators who draft same-sex marriage bans and the religious folks who still petition and protest can go fuck themselves for all I care; LGBT people need not be bullied by these folks if the law is on their side, especially if it's a matter of constitutional rights.

It would be great if everyone could get along, but failing that, this fight is not about seeking approval of those who dislike same-sex marriage or homosexuality; it's about saying, "Well fuck what you think; get on board or we're going over your head."

...if this group worships law and substitutes Al Gore for John the Baptist, I really can't see this site as a terribly good use of my time.

This group doesn't do that, Andy. When you brought up Al Gore and AGW, I saw most people in the conversation -- which represents a tiny fraction of the membership -- play Al Gore down if they commented on him at all. Somehow you've managed to recall that as elevating him saint status, but this is a total fabrication on your part. Selective memory. For someone complaining about being misunderstood, you don't try very hard to understand others.

Comment by kris feenstra on May 26, 2014 at 3:36am

As a point of clarification, when I talk about going over the head of the government, I don't mean the entire government; I mostly mean legislators fighting against same-sex marriage in this specific case.

Comment by Gallup's Mirror on May 26, 2014 at 5:36am

I'm currently operating at a surplus of ignoratio elenchi.

You do operate by distracting from the issue at hand, piling on one irrelevancy after another.

In this case, the issue is that every state ban on same-sex marriage is being challenged in court, and every ban ruled upon has been struck down, setting up a probable 'final showdown' in the US Supreme Court.

At hand is your comment that it's nothing to get "excited" about: urging LGBT people to "care less" about government and religion in their lives. You started this new thread on the basis of that comment.

Again, I find myself curious. I'm a little confused by, yet interested in the thoughts of others. Under these circumstances, I am inclined to perform some research, which consists in part by asking questions. Call it sociology. I ask a question, and I attract ire. They say that philosophy is questions which may not be answered, and religion is answers that may not be questioned. Apparently I have been questioning answers which may not be questioned.

Is government a more powerful force than love? Are police more powerful than disgust? Are your emotions greater than the military? What is the purpose of a mountain?

You attract ire because you attack others falsely ("It seems I have confused atheists with freethinkers!") for correctly pointing out your own shortcomings, such as failing to be clear or asking meaningless questions that are irrelevant to the topic at hand.

In an attempt to emphasize the importance of love in the human experience, I advocated what I believe to be humanity's greatest quality. My bad.

You offhandedly belittled LGBT people and their legal rights. Now you're falsely portraying that as "attempting to emphasize the importance of love" and saying the valid criticism you got comes from lack of interest "in love and the quality of life for humans".

Yeah. That's bad, Andy.

I'll probably weigh in for a few minutes once a week through the summer (whether you like it or not), then I am done with this 'community'. If this group isn't that interested in love and the quality of life for humans, if this group worships law and substitutes Al Gore for John the Baptist, I really can't see this site as a terribly good use of my time. It's a big internet.

By all means, weigh in. It's a symbiotic relationship.

Our community provides the government worship, Al Gore baptisms, poor freethinking, disdain for humanity's greatest quality (love), and disallowing of questions.

You provide opportunities to demonstrate your assertions of willful ignorance, intellectual dishonesty, anti-science, flawed reasoning and poor critical thinking skills. These are teaching moments.

You're doing our readership a valuable service, Andy.

I know that homosexuals have a cause to celebrate. 

Everyone who cares about 'quality of life for humans' has cause to celebrate the end of a long standing injustice. This is the major civil rights issue of our time.

What government now makes of this religious institution is a big deal to you, right? That's cool, I'm happy for you, but to celebrate a religious institution seems fairly odd on an 'atheist' website. Just sayin'.

Marriage licenses come from the state. So do the 1,138 benefits, rights and protections that are provided on the basis of marital status under Federal law. Gay couples line up at city hall, not church, when a court strikes down a ban on same-sex marriage.

Comment by Dustin on May 26, 2014 at 9:05pm

"Tell me ThinkAtheist, does law matter more than love?"

I do not understand the question.  Am I the only one?  

If I do understand it in the way that I believe it is being asked, then I am left wondering...why does such a question ever need to be asked and for what reason?

It seems so obvious to me.   

Unless there is an underlying meaning behind the question I do not comprehend?

"Marriage is a much older religious institution than a governmental one"

Evidence?

Or do you mean when Genghis Khan has a concubine for each day of the year with leftovers to spare.  

Or Polygamy perhaps?

Or are you speaking about arranged marriages?

Comment by Davis Goodman on May 26, 2014 at 10:42pm

I'm sorry you haven't learnt anything yet about critical thinking, how to properly phrase questions, admit when you make even the slightest error, how to clarify your ideas, answer any questions anyone asks you, relent or play by the basic rules of rational discourse. I guess it's a failure on our part Andy. We didn't try hard enough.

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