Comment by Mr Good Without God on January 31, 2011 at 5:32pm

It's hard to say when this phrase became popular among Christians. According to Gregory Kouki of the radio show Stand to Reason, "this slogan has been a rallying cry of 1970s and 80s evangelicalism.” You can read blog posts on it, watch Christians on YouTube recycling it, you can even buy bumpers stickers proclaiming it. You'll notice right away what is wrong with this statement. The opposite is closer to the truth.

It is a religion

A relationship with God requires the framework of religion to define the nature of that relationship. Put another way, Christians think that they can develop personal relationships with God because of religion. Religion promotes the idea of a relationship with a personal God. Religion teaches what that relationship will be like. Religion reinforces the concept that God communicates directly to you. Religion encourages evangelism and indoctrination. A relationship with God without the framework of religion is meaningless. One begets the other.

This statement, like other specious arguments, is vague and packed with equivocation. D. Q. McInerny, author of Being Logical: A Guide to Good Thinking, warns against the use of vague and ambiguous words, "not because they have no meaning, but because they are especially rich in meaning”. Notice here how religion is used equivocally. It's defined incompletely as dressing up, going to church, singing hymns, and listening to a sermon. These activities are subsumed under religion, certainly. But that definition leaves out important features of religion that would make the validity of the statement harder to justify.

It's not a real relationship

Not in the sense that they mean. A positive statement about a relationship with God presumes God's existence. Christians need to give evidence for God before they assert that one can have a relationship with him. Resorting to personal experience doesn't count. Neither does using scripture as a source of evidence.

Even when I allow the possibility that there is a creator, that only gets me from atheism to deism. How can a Christian get from a deistic worldview to a theistic worldview without retreating to personal experience, circular logic, or a belief void of evidence?

It's time to move on

Christians should dump this tired, stupid phrase from their repertoire of one-liners. It weakens their credibility and the statement is false. It is about religion. Christians should concede that the statement is bunk and that they're playing games with words.

 

 

http://www.thinkatheist.com/profiles/blogs/its-not-a-religion-its-a

Comment by Mr Good Without God on January 31, 2011 at 5:36pm

"Youll find in the bible which is the writen basis of the Christian faith, that when a person accepts Jesus Christ into their lives they become saved."

 

Unless you have committed the only unforgivable sin and blasphemed the holy spirit that is:

 

• Mark 3:28-30: “Truly I tell you, people will be forgiven all their sins and all the blasphemies they utter. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin. He said this because they [the Pharisees] were saying, ‘He has an evil spirit’.”

• Matthew 12:30-32: “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. And so I tell you, people will be forgiven every sin and blasphemy. But the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.”

• Luke 12:8-10: “I tell you, whoever acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man will also acknowledge him before the angels of God. But he who disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of God. And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.”

• Hebrews 6:4-8: “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned. Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case — the things that have to do with salvation.”

• Hebrews 10:26-29: “For we, sinning wilfully after receiving the full knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and fiery zeal about to consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think those deserve to be punished who have trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has considered as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who have insulted the Spirit of grace?”

 

Comment by Bryan B on January 31, 2011 at 10:30pm

Read my mind Ava "I believe strongly though that we humans all need forgiveness from God because we offend Him" makes me think "Screw you God, I happen to be a pretty good person and confident enough to not need your opinion" Goes back to  orginal sin, a direct attack on self-esteem. Not much better than a bully.

Comment by Eoganacht on January 31, 2011 at 11:31pm

Poetry runs out of the hands of the life made in His image.

 

Answer me this: does your god have a laryngeal nerve that goes from the brain, wraps around his aorta near the heart - one of the largest arteries in his body - and then returns back up to his larynx?

Comment by Jtrottier on February 1, 2011 at 2:34am

You cannot have a personal relationship with someone you've never met, never seen. You are in a religion and not a relationship. All you know of God/Jesus you got in some form from other people, whether past down in old books then compiled by ancient people, or word of mouth.

If Jesus or the holy spirit has "active dialog" with his church then why are they all on different pages? Why has church reformations come about through reforming "prophets"? Why would you need such a thing? Why would a God who really speaks need to warn of false prophets? Can he not just tell ya? Quit deluding yourself God/Jesus/ doesn't speak because it/he/she cannot.

The bible is *not* god speaking to man if it is god is confused, as he contradicts himself, alot. Particularly, about who he is, and what he is doing. Not to mention if god decided to speak to man in such a way, Why choose the bronze age to get the message out? What an a-hole, he knew there was going to be a 21st Century with Internet and TV, massive translation capabilities, etc. Why not now? Or hell a friggin' direct message in your brain!!!

Also, why would we need to believe in him so much? In the OT he didn't seem to have this "problem" he wanted to make sure he was know as the best-est god out there, Having the "Children of Israel" wipe out other cultures for their "sin", or just gettin' pissed and giving people tumors or killing people who slipped and touched his precious ark.

Now that a large majority of the world is down with a/the  Abrahamic  G-O-D why not show up make a bang, say "Hey, I am the almighty!" and clear all this other crap up?

P.S. I didn't really read any of what others posted, they may have similar ideas/ questions in their posts.

Comment by Reg The Fronkey Farmer on February 1, 2011 at 6:53am

A personal relationship with Jesus is great. I am happy for you.

I have never met a Pentecostal person before. I have so many questions. How else is it different to Christianity? It must be great not having any of the ritual of those organised religions. So you don’t have to attend church at the same time every week with other people having who also have personal relationships? You don’t have to pray everyday or read the bible everyday like other people who have ritual habits to follow? Do other people with personal relationships get jealous if Jesus gives them more attention? How exactly does that work? Jesus is just brilliant the way he can manage his time like that.

Could you please tell me what accent he speaks in when he talks with you? What kinds of things do you both discuss? Will this relationship continue when you reach adulthood?

I agree with you that we are all one race of humans on one rock. We are all the same and should be treated equally. Could you please explain what it is we have done to offend Jesus and why we need forgiveness?

I look forward to you answers. Must go now a flip some pancakes for breakfast.

Comment by Allen Sneed on February 1, 2011 at 9:11am

Why would an all powerful god need to have his son tortured and killed before he could forgive his creation for a sin committed by their great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great... you see where I'm going with this ... grandparents?

 

And why would an all knowing god create the first humans without the knowledge of right and wrong and then punish them and billions of their descendants for their original sin?

 

And why would an all loving god condemn his own children to an eternity of torment simply for not worshiping him? Why not poof them out of existence? Why the torture? Is a being capable of condemning anyone to eternal torture really worthy of worship? My answer is FUCK NO!

 

Your god offends me. You can have your personal relationship with the ubernazi sky bully. I'd rather suffer an eternity in hell than praise something as evil and disgusting as your god.

Comment by Cara Coleen on February 1, 2011 at 2:20pm

Derick, please take a moment to read the Debate Guidelines. What you are doing is proselytizing, and that is not welcome on this site. You are free to engage in debate, but you cannot "witness" to, or attempt to bring members to "salvation", or convert them to your belief system by inviting Jesus (or whatever other demi-god/deity) into their heart. This is not a discussion; you did not ask for input, nor are you open to it. It is a blatant attempt to win converts.

 

Please do not post anything of this nature on Think Atheist again. Thank you.

Comment by Jonel Burge on February 1, 2011 at 4:14pm

Yeah, he won't be back.

Of course, the downside to this is he's probably very smug in real life, probably even went back to his church, shared with his buddies, "I posted on an atheist forum and converted people by telling them the TRUTH!"

Newsflash: Christians don't know truth. They're allergic to it.

Comment by Laura Foster on February 1, 2011 at 6:31pm

You know, I've heard the same wording all my life; the "personal relationship with God" and the "letting Jesus into your heart".  The thing is, I don't get it.  I'm guessing the words are hard to come by, since people just keep repeating these particular phrases.

 

So, lemme ask ya.  What exactly does "letting Jesus in your heart" mean?  Does it mean loving Jesus?  I can do that the way I love my fellow humankind, I suppose, but beyond that, I never met the guy.  Does it mean just saying, "Hey Jesus, come into my heart?"  Because I did that when I was eight, and back then they told me that I'd be set for life if I did that.  I know a good insurance policy when I see one, and I even did when I was eight.  

 

Does it mean living as Jesus lived?  Well I can't do that I'm afraid.  See, I was born to regular human beings who had sex in order to make me.  I was born in a hospital, not a stable, and I'm a shitty carpenter.  I can't turn bread and fish into more bread and more fish, and my vintning skillz are lax at best.  I never cursed a fruit tree for not being in season.  I never rounded up a dozen guys and walked around in the Middle East barefoot, healing cripples or preventing stonings.  As a matter of fact, by the time Jesus was my age, he'd been dead a couple years.  So, how am I supposed to live like Jesus?  Jesus never even made it to my age, and it's not like I'm very old.

 

Does it mean following the example of what's written in the Bible?  Because here, you're going to have to help me out.  Which part of the Bible is "outdated" or "mistranslated", and which part is the part we should be following?  And how do you know?  Because I can't, for example, stop working for a living, because that's what enables us to eat and have heating oil.  I don't suppose they needed heating oil in first-century Judea.  I really don't want my husband to have to marry my sisters, as they're already married, and we totally don't have room

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