Comment by luvtheheaven on November 5, 2010 at 2:19am

I sent a long message to her, and she replied to me, if anyone is at all interested in what she said (or what I said) let me know... ;)

Comment by Jon Heim on November 5, 2010 at 5:27am

it's kind of obvious what she said. "oh you're just confused, the devil is working in you're life, oh..it must be because you've had a bad experience or maybe you're just angry with god."

I really don't think that theists understand our need for proof...they give us what they think is proof...but it's really just a anecdote of something that happened to them. Either that or a prefabricated story from the bible or a preacher or something.

we've heard it all before...apparently they are the ones that haven't because they cant seem to get past it.

as far as feeling responsible for her "calm" household...well I guess if I ran up to my room and prayed, everyone would know I was upset and would just shut the f*^% up for once. lol

Comment by luvtheheaven on November 5, 2010 at 12:10pm

Yeah I know. That was basically my reaction too lol. And lol at everyone shutting the f*^% up because you ran into your room and prayed, but good point. ;)

Comment by luvtheheaven on November 5, 2010 at 12:44pm

But I feel like she really doesn't understand my perspective, and I kinda feel like I understand hers.

In her reply to my reply (lol) she said:

I totally understand your point of culture, and that if I had grown up in another civilization, I'd have a different belief, I totally agree with that & no I'm not Jewish :D you're correct. I'm into Protestantism.
I'm so sure just because all things that involves God make sense to me & because as I told you before I've seen him working in my life & I have feel him with me everytime.
As you said the world is full of a lot of different beliefs, but who knows, IMO I guess just God does lol.

How can you understand that fact, that because of your culture and how you were raised you were one religion and if you were raised somewhere else you'd be another religion... and yet still be so sure that your Protestant Christian god is the correct one? I just don't understand how she can still be so convinced.

I honestly don't care about religion at all, I see it as a bunch of rules, with no sense. I'm more into God,Jesus,Holy Spirit & the Bible, that's the base of my beliefs.
I don't care what a religion can think of me, what I truly care is what God thinks of me.

I've seen this a lot - I don't like organized religion - except for all the doctrine in the freakin' Bible? Even so much so that she feels like:

Sorry about me being homophobic, is just that as I follow everything the Bible says, I'm not fine with it, is not like if I go to school and there's gay people I'll run from them of course not, because that doesn't change they are human beings and deserve to be accepted, because homosexuality in a sins POV is the same as lying. There's no sin bigger than other, so as Jesus said on the Bible, I love the sinner not the sin.
And yes, God/Jesus/Holy Spirit do talk, thru the Bible, God left us the Bible just the same way Apple created a user guide for macs. The Bible is the guide for humans life.

Really? She doesn't like religion? What aspects of religion doesn't she like, because to me, God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and the Bible is like all that Christianity is, what else is she leaving out lol?!

I'm skipping a few things she said that don't really matter... hmm... oh

No, you're not disappointed, you're actually like one of the few people I can talk about my beliefs without any problem :D lol. I do believe that is good talking about our problems with some human being, because you're the first person I tell about my sister's lesbian thing xD, and I feel freer about it now, because I haven't told anyone before.

I'm not sure what word she meant by disappointed lol... obviously not disappointed though. Oh... I get it now... I think she was responding to when I said in MY reply to her:
I'm a little... disappointed(? that's probably not the correct word lol) at just how AMAZED you were that your prayer came true....

;)

I don't know what to say about that last paragraph of hers, she was basically agreeing with me, overall, which is nice I guess. But she still thinks there is a supernatural reason talking to God made her feel better too.

But then she starts restating what I tried my best to refute the first time... she said (emphasis in bold is mine):

And no I didn't pray for my brother (weird)lol, I believe everything happens for a reason, that everything has a purpose.
I didn't say like for sure that your dad is like a huge proof God exists. I just wanted to make an example of great things God have given us without we asking for it or did you went to a catalog to ask for your dad? did you went to a catalog to ask for a perfect life? No, none of us did. I believe God in his big mercy gave all those great things, we don't deserve most of the times.

As you said '' I could have had much worse things happen to me.'' But thanks God you didn't. That's some proof he's being taking care of you.
I guess that knowing way to much can lead us to different not to say wrong paths. Maybe you just looked for SO many information when you were not ready to handle it. (No offense, for real.lol)

Err... I just don't know how to reword my explanation of why these things, especially the bold parts, bother me. So she thinks I'm an atheist because I learned too much for my poor little mind to handle?! And then she has the audacity to say "no offense". Lol. Wow. I SPECIFICALLY said to her:

(regarding her prayer that came true...)
Or maybe the answer is that "God just does what is best" or "works in mysterious ways" or "has his own plan" in which case why does praying even matter at all in the first place, if he's just going to grant only the prayers that he knows are worth granting and just do whatever is best for the world anyway, regardless of if you pray for it or not?
and I also said:
When? Where? How? God didn't "say" anything. He's never actually, literally "spoken" to anyone who is alive today at least.


But yet she said to me in the reply:

As I told you in my previous message, God didn't say life was going to be easy (yes, he talks IMO).

As you said there are a lot of things we can't get an answer, and that's what faith was created for, I just believe in certain things, because God said that's how it is & I don't have anything else to question about it.

She then finished her message, quoting me and adding her own reply:

I liked this:
''Honestly, it is impossible to prove god doesn't exist. It it impossible to prove prayer doesn't work. It is impossible to prove ghosts don't exist. It is impossible to prove that psychics aren't real. It is impossible to prove that there isn't an invisible unicorn in my room with me right now as I'm typing this. It is impossible to prove that aliens aren't among us disguised as humans. It is impossible to prove that our whole lives aren't some sci-fi virtual reality like the matrix or a dream or something lol. It is impossible to prove a negative. But that doesn't mean all those things are real/really happening lol. That doesn't mean there is an invisible unicorn in my room right now. And that doesn't mean god definitely exists. Just because he is unfalsifiable that doesn't mean he exists.''
It's impossible to prove he's there, the same way is impossible to prove he's not.

And thanks lol, because as I said before you're the first person I talk freely about my beliefs and how I see God. <3

*Hugs*
*waiting for your next LONG reply* lol.

I need to type up a new reply to her lol, she's waiting for me, and she tweeted me last night:

Please don't take long, I'm enjoying this conversation! xD

And I love her enthusiasm and her seemingly genuine enjoying of the conversation. I am enjoying it too, I love talking about my own beliefs and lack of belief and trying to hone my explaining and debating techniques. I like the challenge of trying to maybe get her to reconsider her own stance on things, which is what I'm doing. I don't need her to become an atheist, I know that's never going to happen, but it's still always the ultimate goal, because if she fully understood my arguments and thoughts she would then start to question everything about her own faith. But right now she is so set in her belief that the Bible is written by God so it's infallible and the bible said God exists so it must be true, and she doesn't see how circular that logic is nor how indoctrinated it is into her mind.

I guess that's the first thing I should try to gently word into my reply to her right now. I'm going to get started on that. ;)

I hope someone else is interested in what I'm writing here too lol... I just felt like sharing all this with fellow atheists who think like me. :D

Comment by Natasha Kenny on November 5, 2010 at 7:01pm

Can't wait to read more.

Comment by luvtheheaven on November 5, 2010 at 8:31pm

Glad you want to read more...

Because she just replied back to me... and AH I don't even know where to begin with my reply to her.

I think I'll tell you what I said to her first just so it all makes more sense:

Yeah we'll definitely still be friends after all this is over, and I'd still like to make a Smallville collab with you sometime lol. ;) OR Glee or TVD if you feel like vidding either of those fandoms... ;)

Okay so you said:
"I totally understand your point of culture, and that if I had grown up in another civilization, I'd have a different belief, I totally agree with that & no I'm not Jewish :D you're correct. I'm into Protestantism.
I'm so sure just because all things that involves God make sense to me & because as I told you before I've seen him working in my life & I have feel him with me everytime.
As you said the world is full of a lot of different beliefs, but who knows, IMO I guess just God does lol."

How can you understand that fact, that because of your culture and how you were raised you were one religion and if you were raised somewhere else you'd be another religion... and yet still be so sure that your Protestant Christian god is the correct one? I just don't understand how you can still be so convinced.

You said: "I honestly don't care about religion at all, I see it as a bunch of rules, with no sense. I'm more into God,Jesus,Holy Spirit & the Bible, that's the base of my beliefs.
I don't care what a religion can think of me, what I truly care is what God thinks of me."

I've seen this a lot - people say "I don't like organized religion" - except for all the doctrine in the freakin' Bible? Even so much so that you feel like:

"Sorry about me being homophobic, is just that as I follow everything the Bible says, I'm not fine with it, is not like if I go to school and there's gay people I'll run from them of course not, because that doesn't change they are human beings and deserve to be accepted, because homosexuality in a sins POV is the same as lying. There's no sin bigger than other, so as Jesus said on the Bible, I love the sinner not the sin.
And yes, God/Jesus/Holy Spirit do talk, thru the Bible, God left us the Bible just the same way Apple created a user guide for macs. The Bible is the guide for humans life."

Really? You don't like religion? What aspects of religion doesn't she like, because to me, God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and the Bible is like all that Christianity is, what else are you leaving out lol?! Seriously though.

Also you truly think you follow EVERYTHING the Bible says?! Really? I highly doubt that. Do you support slavery? Do you agree that women should not speak in church but rather only in private to their own husbands? The bible has all sorts of crazy things in it that most people don't agree with. I am not as much of an expert on it as others, but if you support the part of Leviticus that says that "a man lying with another man" is wrong, then you should also keep kosher and avoid eating shellfish, never get any piercings or tattoos, never ever have sex while the woman is on her period, etc. And the thing about women not being allowed to speak in Church is in the same book of the bible as the only other commonly quoted support of homophobia. And there are plenty of Christians who think homosexuality is okay, even you accept that God made your sister homosexual, right? That's a huge difference from how people thought in biblical times. Some Christians argue that the bible only meant gay prostitutes are wrong, not all gay people, it was an anti-prostitution message. There are conflicting views but honestly I don't care, because I don't believe the bible was divinely inspired. It is self-contradicting, and just so so so obviously written by humans with no guiding hand. At least it's obvious to me.

This is the first thing that came to my mind, the fact that despite God says there is only 1 god and you need to worship him... yet throughout the bible "gods" is written many many times! LOL!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqcW-UGAjlw

Seriously watch that.

Look in your own bible and see for yourself, he cites the exact places where he finds all those "gods" mentions.

Actually watch the whole "Brief Bible Blunders" playlist, it's so funny and well done:
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=6F8036F680C1DBEB

Or if you'd prefer you can watch some of the playlist in Spanish!! ;) They don't have the whole thing in Spanish but 4 of the videos are.
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=E8D251DB458C1191

Seriously, please watch those and let me know what you think.

I just see you as so set in your belief that the Bible is written by God so it's infallible and the bible said God exists so it must be true.

You doesn't see how circular that logic is nor how indoctrinated it is into your mind.

How do you know the bible is written by god? Because the bible itself says so? LOL. I could write a book and claim that god wrote/inspired it. And the words I wrote into the book could claim that too. That doesn't mean it's true...

How do you KNOW you can trust that the bible is the correct thing to be respecting and following and basing your life on? Why not the Muslim holy book, the Koran?

I'll wait for you to answer those questions, I really am curious to hear your answers as well as your reaction to the brief bible blunders series.

:D

I am not done replying yet! There are more things I want to say. I will continue to write the rest of my reply in a new message now. I hope that's okay. ;)

~Emily

And then Elena said to me:

D Great, I like those three fandoms :D ( I just have SV & Glee episodes on my computer btw) lol.

What makes me believe my Protestant Christian God is the correct one? Well, the actual facts, first of all a lot of people from all those civilizations believe in the same God that I do.
A proof: http://www.cbn.com/media/player/index.aspx?s=/vod/al32v1_ws
Which means they have realized that they were in the wrong path.

I know religion is base on God/Jesus/Holy Spirit/Bible, but what I tried to say by that is that I don't follow humans rules, but the rules established by my God.
I'm not religious, I'm a Christian,which means I don't follow a religion, but what I do follow is Christ.

I do not support slavery, because if you study a little deep the Bible, you'll see that it's divided in two sections, the old and the new testament. In the old testament humans were doing a lot of bad things, things that God broke(to use a word lol), when he sent his son in a human being condition everything changed.Jesus came to Earth and died in a cross paying for our sins, he just did not do that. He also helped us to establish our communication with God (thru prayers), because as a consequence of what happen during the creation, humans lost their capacity to communicate with God.
During the old testament, God used other humans to talk to the humanity, that's what is called Prophets (one inspired by God through the Holy Spirit to deliver a message for a specific purpose.).

In the new testament Paul wrote a book dedicated to the Church of Chorintios, and yes he said that women shouldn't speak at Church, but he just said it in the case of THAT congregation.
For example is like in your house you have rules, that here in my house those rules are not needed because we don't have the same issues or situations.

''even you accept that God made your sister homosexual, right? '' No, I don't. Because I think God IS NOT a jerk. That should have been stupid if he created homosexual and then teaches the whole humanity that it's wrong. IMO God doesn't act that way.
I don't know about the POV of other Christian, but what I've read in MY Bible, doesn't go with that weird theory. LOL!.

Yes, the Bible uses the word gods, but if you read the whole thing, you can see it's talking about all the FAKE gods humans created on their lives, and God was explaining them, that the one and only God is him, that ALL those gods they were following were just wrong.

''How do you know the bible is written by god? Because the bible itself says so?''
I just have faith, I believe God is my father, and what my father says, it's what it is.

-Hebrews 11

Faith in Action

1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

- 2 Timothy 3:16 (New International Version)

16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.

''You also keep saying that an explanation for why evil and bad things like diseases and birth defects and pain all exist is that "God never said life would be easy".

But remember how I said:

(regarding your prayer that came true...)
"Or maybe the answer is that "God just does what is best" or "works in mysterious ways" or "has his own plan" in which case why does praying even matter at all in the first place, if he's just going to grant only the prayers that he knows are worth granting and just do whatever is best for the world anyway, regardless of if you pray for it or not?"


I don't understand how you can believe that your own free will, and what you choose to pray, matters at all. How can what you say in prayer matter if you also believe that ultimately God does everything according to a "I'm going to do what's best" plan for the world? ''

As I said before I see God as my Holy Father, you can relate it to the relationship you have with your dad, God knows every single little things you need, but he wants you to have a relationship w/him, and to tell him what you want. The point is that as the same way our parents do. He listens to our prayers and gives us what we really need, and what is for our best.
He cannot gives us everything we ask for, because that wouldn't be a way of loving us, that would just be a way of dealing with us, and he doesn't want to deal with us, he wants to loves us, guides us, and helps us deal with the weird situations we get into sometimes.

''Let's pretend someone prays for their child to get cured from cancer (or well, to go into remission). And then it happens! Is that a miracle? Is "miracle" synonymous with God granted that parent's prayer? How do you know that person's child wasn't going to get better regardless of whether or not prayer was involved? Why did the praying matter in the first place? What if the person prayed and yet their child still died? Why did God choose to ignore that prayer? Was God planning on killing the child anyway (or "letting the child die")? Why do you think prayer works if good Christians lose children to cancer sometimes, and atheists sometimes get lucky enough to go into remission?''

Prayers are always needed, IMO. Because this world keeps going around because God decided it that way. God loves us the same way, you don't believe in him and I do, fine. Either way he loves both of us the same way. Not because you ''ignore'' him, doesn't mean he's gonna stop loving you, because when he died in the cross, he already knew there will be a few that won't believe in him, he even knew you'll be an atheist, but he didn't care,he died, giving you and me the chance to repent from our sins.

It doesn't really matter what we do, he's always there for us. This can go when I said that he gives us things we don't even deserve. He's always there taking care of us, even if we don't care about him.
You're right it might seem unfair when an atheist can be more successful than a good Christian, but God has a different perspective of all things. He gives everyone what he knows we can't handle. There have been cases I've heard at Church of people that had came to God's ways after seeing a son or a daughter died, so there you can see a purpose of God.
We ALL were born with a purpose, God even knew that we'll have this extended conversation. lol. Maybe the purpose of that kid that died was to lead his parents to God's path, but I can keep speculating about God's purpose, because that's too deep and my human mind will never get to where God goes.

''What is the difference to you between a world where it's all coincidence/luck/science and a world where God is actually pulling the strings?''
I can't tell you a difference, because for me there's not a world of coincidence/luck/science. What you call coincidence/luck is God's mercy and science is what the devil had used to put people away from their creator, with this I'm not saying science is bad, but most of the people take it the wrong way.

''My first point, the one I made really clear for you was that people can't prove a negative. I can't prove that god doesn't exist, but that doesn't mean he does exist.''

This part was kinda confusing. You had told me many times you cannot prove he doesn't exits. So why can't you just believe there's a higher being taking care of us and dealing with our lives?

You tell me:
If we came from the monkey (sometime you think) Where does the monkey come from? From the big bang, I don't think so.
All those scientists that have been trying to prove evolution, where did they come from? From a BOOM? I don't think so.
Humans are a really complex thing, & I'm a true believer that we didn't come just from an explosion. Humans are the best invention on earth.
We were created in the image of God. We love, because he does. We created things, we learned things, because he does.

''Why do you have faith in something that has no evidence? '' In my live it does, I've felt God and he has prove me he's here with me all the time. When I feel sad, when I feel empty, when anyone on this earth can make me feel fine, he does, not a monkey or a scientist.

You seem to be a pretty smart girl, I don't understand why is easier for you to believe in something a human being with a limited mind like yours and like mine said. Sometime they're still trying to prove.

The idea of ''Original Sin'', is basically based lol, in that since we are born we have the ''ability'' to sin, but that doesn't mean a newborn isn't innocent.
The Bible clearly says:

-Matthew 18:3 (New International Version)

3 And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.''

Which means, little children are still innocent, but of course with time they'll learn to sin, because that is what the world is teaching us.! :D

God had an awesome purpose for our lives, but after Adam & Eve messed up in the creation, it all changed! :D

:D Done for now!

Yeah, I feel really good talking all this personal/non-personal things with you! I don't know why, but I feel you lol, because I can't see you xD as a great & trustful person :D

*hugs*

Comment by luvtheheaven on November 5, 2010 at 8:43pm

By the way if you guys have any suggestions on what I should say, I'm kind of at a loss. I can't believe she's a creationist. I don't know any creationists in real life lol. I never expected her to be a creationist (well until her first message where she said my dad couldn't have come from the big bang, then I suspected as much lol)...
But more importantly I don't know exactly what to say in response to her "proof" that Christianity is the correct religion. I just had this overwhelming feeling of "yikes" when I read it. How can people think Christianity is the only religion people have ever converted to or whatever it is that she's thinking?!
What should I say in response? I'm kinda at a loss.

Comment by luvtheheaven on November 5, 2010 at 9:11pm

Okay so I really hate a lot of what she said in this message, the more closely I read it, the more I don't like it. I really want to respond to her with my true feelings and thoughts, as completely as possible. But I don't know how to word it... and in some cases I don't even know what exactly the best counter"evidence" for her would be that I could offer her...

Comment by luvtheheaven on November 5, 2010 at 9:18pm

And sorry to keep spamming this page with my own comments but I just wanted to add that Elena is living in the Dominican Republic right now. For context. ;)

Comment by Don on November 5, 2010 at 9:53pm

Sorry, luv, but on the evidence here it really seems to me that your poor friend is beyond rescue. Her delusions run deep, and she has protected herself from the introduction of doubt (much less of reason) by accepting the truly vile, ludicrous, and confounding notion that anything that may lead a person away from her faith must be the work of the devil. So there's nowhere for her to go. She's happily trapped in her mythological gobble-de-gook (dropping in meaningless irrelevant Bible passages and the reference to Adam an Eve!), and any possibility of real, saving enlightenment that you may logically and patiently advance can't have the slightest influence in alleviating on her willful ignorance, because if she were to begin to wonder at all she would count that very wondering as a satanic intrusion. I have to say that I think it's time to accept that your friend is utterly lost to cultish fantasy and to begin to engage with her in ways that don't touch on her socially-sanctioned craziness. You're the only party to this dialogue who may be helped by it, insofar as it gives you frustrating insights into the workings of of a tragically corrupted mind.

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