Hey good people, here, I have been having a discussion with an anon gentleman going by the moniker j.w who I think lives on this side of the blue ball. 

The discussion, so far has covered several issues among them how the universe came to be, historicity of Jesus, a bit on god and a major part has been on evolution and it is here that I need some help. I have in my responses tried to explain evolution as I understand which may not be very accurate or satisfactory but looking at his responses, I feel that even though he appears to have read a bit on evolution he doesn't understand it or he is so immersed in creationism that it doesn't make sense to him.

A case in point, in the latest responses I asked him to explain among others pseudo-genes and  similarities in DNA sequence in life then in his response he says 2) SEMBLANCE IN DNA BETWEEN DIFFERENT SPECIES.
My friend When you look at that similarities between the different models of the Mercedes Benz do you conclude that they all evolved by random unguided processes from the same ancestor over a long period of time or do you conclude that they have the same manufacturer? I haven't responded yet to this, but I know it is a false comparison. If we were to take his creation story, man would be unique and would not share DNA sequence with any other animal since all animals came into existence on the word of god while man he created in his image[that is the christian god].

There are parts of his responses that are hard to read, he has a whole paragraph in caps. 

I think he also doesn't understand random chance in gene mutation and evolution in general. 

The matter of historicity of Jesus I feel has been dealt with sufficiently so it is really not a big concern for me. 

I would have asked him to go to the national museum in the human skull section since entry fee for adult citizens is just over a dollar but you'll realize from his comments that even if he were to see the fossil evidence it wouldn't help my case much.

Please, find time to make comments here or on the link I have given. Where my answers were inadequate you can point them for me here. 

Views: 219

Tags: Jesus, atheism, creationism, evolution

Comment by Dr.Grixis on October 17, 2012 at 3:50am

Hi onyango,

I've quickly read through the discussion and I ran into some problems. It seems that he is using the same old tired arguments that have been refuted a million times before. You have come at the point where you know that he's not really listening to you anyway. 

It's time to throw in the towel, and respectfully tell the guy that since he did not read any of the sources provided you will be happy to continue when he does know what he's talking about.

Then again, I tend to be an arrogant prick that prefers honesty over (supposed) civility.

Comment by Reg The Fronkey Farmer on October 17, 2012 at 5:45am

I have had a similar debate with a Theist recently. While on the topic of evolution he pointed to a magazine on my coffee table that had a picture of a new model BMW on the cover. He said that it was obvious to anyone that it was “designed” and that therefore must have a designer who was intelligent.
To the theist this line of “thinking” is used to introduce and prove the concept of Intelligent Design. While on the surface this may seem a reasonable claim, once it is given consideration it is very flawed. However this is the whole point that Evolution makes – gradual change over time. The BMW (or Mercedes or the human eye) did not suddenly appear overnight full developed in their current form.
I explained that first man discovered the wheel. T hen we joined two together with a log. Then the chariot, the horse drawn carriage, the stagecoach, the first prototype cars and so on until one day BMW came up with the M3. Even the model in the picture, while it bears a resemblance to earlier model M3’s from the 1980’s, it is clear that this one is a distinct species whose ancestry can be traced back to the chariots. If you looked at a modern car it might not be obvious because chariots have become extinct. When we find them buried in volcanic ash in Italy they don’t look like modern cars but we can see the progression as there are NO missing links. Therefore the modern car is a product of Evolution.
This rendered him speechless. I could see that he was trying to come up with a counter argument but could not. So I continued to explain to him that Evolution is NOT and never was a matter of faith. It is only a matter of understanding. If you spend the time to study it “everything” will become clear. We are an evolved species, evolved from a common ancestor that primates are also evolved from. All humans are related very closely to each other and almost as closely to every other species on the planet.
Sometimes they will reply “ok but god started it all and allowed evolution” but the best way to deal with that can be to look at them as if they are half mad.
Then I took the theist for a 10 minute high speed 4.4 litre V8 rush on the back road and said to him “Man I think there is a god after all and he is German!!!”. He remained speechless.

Comment by onyango makagutu on October 17, 2012 at 5:57am

Am liking this already

Comment by James Cox on October 17, 2012 at 10:46am

For me, I found that the best way to get out of theism was to study nature. If we could just their heads out of the 'good book' long enough maybe they might wake up?

Comment by Juan Lubbe on October 17, 2012 at 11:27am

First point I have to make is evolution is non-random. You clearly don't know the basics in evolutionary theory.

Comment by Reg The Fronkey Farmer on October 17, 2012 at 12:45pm

I had meant to address the “random” bit of his argument. However this is very well explained here as to why he is wrong in saying that it is so.

Comment by onyango makagutu on October 17, 2012 at 3:03pm

@juan, if in my response i said that evolution is random, then i that must have been a misrepresentation. The gene changes/ mutations are random. that said, I think it would only be fair on your part once you say I don't know the basics in evolutionary theory to point me to the right direction instead of a response that can only be compared to a hit and run car driver. I was very clear and stated that it is on evolution that I needed help and that I had answered to what I know or understand! 

Reg I'll look at the link provided.

Comment by Juan Lubbe on October 17, 2012 at 3:21pm

Let me elaborate on your question on gene changes/mutations. If the mutation benefits the population to produce more offspring the mutation will become more common in that population of species down the generations.

Comment by onyango makagutu on October 17, 2012 at 3:24pm

The initial mutation is random but the following mutations if it is beneficial to the individual will become more common. Is this the case?

Comment by kris feenstra on October 17, 2012 at 3:48pm

"Is this the case?"

I'm pretty sure you have it right though the wording is a bit misleading. Mutations are random with regard to evolution in the sense that they do not occur to serve any specific purpose. Natural selection, on the other hand, is not random with regard to evolution. Mutations which propagate (as a generalization) serve the purpose of survival and further propagation. If they didn't, they wouldn't survive and propagate. (I know that's kind of a tautology, but it is still important).

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