In digging through my Bible for old notes, I ran across the idea that Hell doesn't exist. It's not a new idea, but one little explored. The passage that really spoke to me was Ecclesiastes 6:4-5 "I say that a stillborn child is better off than he. It comes without meaning, it departs in darkness, and in darkness it's name is shrouded. Though is never saw the sun or knew anything, it has more rest than does that man-- Even if he lives a thousand years twice over but fails to enjoy his prosperity. Do not all go to the same place?"

The common motivation sold to us through Blaise Pascal's Wager of make the safer choice of choosing God and avoid Hell, if it exists, doesn't even have validity in the Old Testament. It's even absent in some of the New Testament. 2 Peter 3:4 "...Ever since our fathers died, it goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." Modern Christians threaten us heathens as if Hell is a forgone conclusion. If it contradicts death as laid out in the Old Testament, how does one reconcile that? Hell is described by modern Christians as a lake of fire with that of gnashing teeth. To be feared for sure! If nothing has changed, and those in their graves have no thoughts, and Jesus didn't return when he said he would, what is it that I'm afraid of? Do I need anything other than the Bible itself to reject fear of Hell? I would even suggest that the concept was a borrowed concept from a neighboring culture.

The Hebrew word for grave or Hades is Sheol. It's used throughout the Old Testament. A new word is not developed to denote Hell. It's clearly a different concept, but the same word is used. This new Description of Hell comes from the followers of Jesus. It's likely that the source was Egypt. Wiki has a paragraph on it describing it as coming from Osiris and the judgement occurs on "Flame Island". This was developed between Judaism and the writing of the New Testament. Let us not forget the Geography here too, Israel neighbors Egypt. How hard would it be for Americans to adopt the religion of Canada, Hockey? Wait... forget that argument. You can certainly see the relationship of adopting ideas, my attempted example aside. It's not as if Jesus did anything original either outside of still being taught today. But that's a whole other book, or even series of books.

If Hell is absent from the Old Testament outside of Daniel 12:2 which says that "many", not all, will be awaken from their graves as the only OT Gospel that notes being awaken for judgement, and we can see where the concept of Hell comes from, and certainly why as it would pressure people to believe to this day, and we don't need to fear it because of absence of atoms to burn, what again is the argument for Hell and worrying about it? Ecclesiastes 9:10 and I agree, "...there is neither working nor planning, nor knowledge nor wisdom." The very same description that I would give death, and do I look worried?

(As an aside, for more passages, this blog has many. Also consider Ecclesiastes 6:4 "I say that a stillborn child is better off than he. It comes without meaning, it departs in darkness, and in darkness it's name is shrouded." for your abortion arguments. No meaning, no thoughts, God's words.)

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Comment by Galen on June 14, 2010 at 10:50am
I think this one is actually resolved in the Bible. As many contradictions as it has, I can think of an explanation for this one. Contrary to the common Christian belief, the biblical account is that we DON'T go to Heaven or Hell when we die. We are in a state of limbo, unaware of life or the passage of time. We'll remain that way until Judgment Day. Then we all wake up and everybody who has ever lived will all be judged at the same time.. I think this solves the contradiction, so I'm guessing that whoever wrote Revelation already had the same thoughts as you and fixed it, lol.

Although, yes, this is certainly a contradiction to what most xtians THINK their Bible says, but then I find that we often know this shit better than they do anyway. :)
Comment by Galen on June 27, 2010 at 7:03am
Shine, I would assume that since we are supposed to get new "perfect" bodies after the Judgment, those who are hell-bound will also get those. These perfect bodies are supposed to be impervious to harm, though I guess they can still feel the pain of hellfire. Thus, you have a supernaturally indestructible body that can burn forever, feel the pain of that fire, but never be destroyed by it.

Sounds more like a super power out of a comic book, doesn't it? LOL!
Comment by Johnny on June 27, 2010 at 8:37am
Comment by Aspentroll on June 27, 2010 at 11:40am
I have always thought that "Hell" was invented by priests in the middle ages and earlier to frighten the gullible and get them to contribute money and work for the churches that were being built.
Things haven't changed all that much these days especially in the southern bible belt of the USA.
Comment by Michael on June 29, 2010 at 5:31pm
Strangely enough, the Jehovah's Witnesses preach there is no life after death, that God will resurrect us all for judgment but there is no heaven or hell. Your resurrected body will literally be cast in a lake of fire or live with God in a (presumably) literal Kingdom of Heaven which exists on Earth. It makes a little bit more sense, as the Jews did not have a real after life view back then (maybe they still don't, I'm not sure.) Not that any of this is rational, of course...
Comment by Sawyer Childs on July 6, 2010 at 1:40am
I don't find eccesiastics of much value. It seems to be someone's opinion but one commenter I believe is most correct to say that when we die no ones goes to a heaven or hell. In fact Jesus address this when he told the thief on the cross that this day he would be with him in paradise. Many christians of which I am certainly not think this paradise was heaven but and it's a big Butt alright is that the greek word was paradosa and is defined back in the hebrew as a "walled area" that jews believed was a holding area of sorts for souls until judgement time. I do agree that creation of fear is a prime tactic that all govn't seem to do and religions are really extentions of governments - in bed together and by religion I include new age spirituality. However is there a hell? Well I believe the condition is really one of seeking to stagnate evolutionarily (mindfully) on what more there is that is above and beyond human. Humans on earth are clearly not all the humannss that exists throughout the univese and this planet and others came to be for a reason just like there is a reason fosr all things natural. It's humans by their choice who are so random and often withoiut any positive function to the whole except when we die physcially and the worms get us. Yes, the Jehovah witnesses are as closed minded as all the declared religionists and for that matter many of the declared staunch atheists who insist no beings exist that could have brought this all to be. It's impossible to know what doesnt' exist when we are limited to our fishbowl that could even be as big as the solar system. The new religionists think space aliens created us and they have some good points but those same space aliens don't claim to have brought to be ANY of the elements we all take for granted as just coming to be for our use. I have a mountain of data that suggests space aliens exist and are simply human equivilents that stumbled onto a black hole or some type of highway in outer space that allowed them to just be here from whereever they came from, like passing through a gate. However even in some space alien cultures they talk about there being someone that ultimately designed those gates and all the possabilities. However, meanwhile people are starting to worshp these space aliens. And of course some worship the dead spirits which I have seen on two or more occasions so I can't deny exist. One was a very, very clear human spirit. Another like a child with a sheet over their head gliding by me. The others as hard to see details of people in my room at night. This is funny but on several occsions the room was full of these hard to see beings and they were all masturbating. Seriously, and it was after my doing so. I understand that all humans play host to various numbers and relationships of these dead beings who seek to satisfy their desires they established while alive, whatever they were through encouraging living humans to that same behavior, so much so that some become as helpers for us to do difficult things easier, while others almost cover our ears when certain new perspectives they don't believe in are presented us. This gives new meaning to Jesus saying, "blessed are they who are poor of spirit, for they shall see God". Poor in spirit was akin to having washed our robe or overcome the world all partaining to getting rid of these spirit helpers, that is when the chance to graduate the human kingdom is presented by someone from that Kingdom. so Hell is simply the result of not choosing to pursue those whom created us while choosing to pursue them opens us up to Their being willing to take us into their abode which is NOT on Earth but somewhere in deep outer space beyond where even space aliens and spirits are able to go. Those who are left will simply die somehow as expected and even their spirit/soul will be eventually be dissolved to nothingness and even potentially be converted into fuel for the combustion processes of the Earth from it's core.
Comment by Michael on July 6, 2010 at 1:53am
That was...incredible. Just incredible. From mild and reasonable to cload cuckoo heaven with one wall of text. To see the stream of consciousness at work is just stunning. I don't think anything more needs to be said by me. I look forward to seeing what other people may add in reply though.
Comment by Gaytor on July 6, 2010 at 2:01am
Let's assume Aliens created us. Why Worship them? Do we want ant farms to worship us?

What biblical reason do we have to assume that Jesus was referring to anything other than Yaweh? He was an Essene through and through his teachings. He thought that the world was about the end and modesty was required through out the Old Testament. So if you were rich, your riches were about to be of no use to you. Your wealth would be a hindrance to entering heaven. I don't know why you would believe in Aliens and Yaweh as a creator.

As for me personally, is a god possible, sure. I don't know so why cut the possibility out? Do I care or think that any god would care if I bow or revere them... no. It's just not an interesting concern because if that God or Creator or Aliens wanted to be known or worshiped, why not show themselves?
Comment by Sawyer Childs on July 7, 2010 at 1:38am
Firt off, there is a huge difference between what have been reported throughout history as ancient astronauts, space aliens and such and the idea that yet beings exist that are miles ahead in all ways these. If humans end up traveling into space and come upon another Earth, they would be aliens to them and they may have better technology but to consider that such orchestrated and evolutionary designed planetary functions and perpetrated species evolutions would still be a huge leap. Thus just because some can travel in space doesn't label them in a creator capasity to the degree the Earth demonstates.

Now re: worship. Well, that's a religious word and religions are all to date a great lie with a foundational reality. What the word really means is "work for" - "give service to". It's become this idea that we are working for or giving service to alleged creators by bowing and scraping to them when bowing and scraping was simply a response (falling on one's face out of fear of what they were witnessing). Well, thousands of year ago before airflight nad such, if someone showed up in a helicopter with lights galore, it would have been an ominous sight indeed and no doubt a fearful one. But the idea of worship by going to a building doesn't serve anyone but those who take the collection. Jesus was very, very clear that giving praise by mouth does not neccessarly have a heart behind it. Jesus also cautioned about group prayer yet all these churches and in other religons as well (as they all stemmed from the same initial encounters with beings they saw as supernaturally above them) do all this group praying. jesu also cautioned against giving alms in public so to be seen as being good or holy, and yet giving has become a tax write off and as it was 2000 yrs ago each church group knows well who contributes the most. Jesus also said to not let one's right hand know what the left is doing regarding giving yet look at how many churches plan and project and engage in all sorts of financial projects that lack that kind of spontaneity without caring about who sees us give.

Now, the question, do these alleged creator "above aliens" beings want us to "serve"(worship) them. No, not at all. They don't need humans for anything. They are content in their environments doing the tasks they have and there are many. It's simply a proposition. They say in so many words, that if someone wants what we have to offer, then heres our expectations. This is why the religoins (to include new age spirituality) are so off kilter with this idea of getting somethng great for next to no investment of our core energy and actions. They say, "he died for us, so we dont have to". Well then they should re-read the many records that say, "to those that overcome and do what I do and are hated the way I am hated", which are many. And some say, Heaven is coming on EArth. Many say, "All we need to do is meditate on world peace or become a mentor to other humans to teach them about this or that alien group who have their human contacts and soon, when the 100th monkey kicks in, s more and more begin meditating (david icke, etc) the planet will be transformed into a utopian society. It's the same pie in the sky notion that someone is saving us from ourselves and I guarantee it is for naught - they have all in their desperation accepted various brainwashings. In a real sense it's not their fault but they are either in for a rude awakening or they will simply die with their head in the sand as millions of others will as well.

But this "creator crew" are simply looking to make available an opportunity for some to make application to join thei ranks down the road after a rigerous training program that is always experiential and always includes various leaps of faith so to speak. They keep upping the anti. It began this time around with Moses. (there have been any number of even high tech civilizatins on EArth before this current one). When Moses came down from Sinai it was said that the Lord spoke to the people but some did not hear words, but heard thundering sounds while others did. The message was that I (the Lord) saved you from Egyptian slavery so if you want to stay on, with Moses as my representative, here are the laws I want you to follow. At any time anyone could have left but of course it was far easier to stay, at least for a while. Now those laws were like a classroom called "civility 101" - a taming of our animal nature which at the same time entailed getting out of our normal animal selfishness to the consideration of others. And right from the beginning the Lord made it clear that lawbreakers would not be tolerated. Now a days for many those laws are common sense but it wasn't that way in our genetic strains early devleopment. The creators objective was in like a first trimester of a three trimester birth development stage and it was free will all the way.

And they did show themselves at times back then but far less the closer and closer to the graduation/birth of a new member into their ranks, because there is a need to cultivate our collective consciousness as produced and developed from each group of leaves on the tree of human life. As we witness the supernatural, as those nearly 1 million folks did in the dessert in those days, with a column of light leading them at night and a cloud leading them in the day along with other phenomena, it instilled a recognitoin of what was possible which was passed on to offspring consciously and subconsciously via the gnome so that for the next trimester, some or many of the human plants (that we all are) are born having a matter of fact belief in certain possabilities that others will simply not have (though all are given chances to have eventually) and having that ingrained sense though nearly impossible to prove, does not elevate anyone, it simply gives them a foundation that can be built upon so when the second trimester experiential classroom occurs the plan is to introduce yet new steps and new requirements to complete the course.

But if the creator crew did show themselves to us now, that is in a direct face to face way that we could have a hard time denying was significantly greater and above us, like what a deer feels in the headlights, it would be like taking us over by working tricks to win our support and They don't at all want robots. they can make robots galore.

But the space aliens and their earth human counterparts (knowingly and unknowingly in service to them), they do like to win over people by forms of magic and have to date escalated such. But perhaps one of the best examples of an alien overwhelming a human to their support was with the story of Paul of TArsus. Being blinded by a light and told it was Jesus doing it was not at all kin to anything Jesus taught or said, nor anything moses taught and said, etc. Jesus even warned not to believe anyone with tricks and who says they are Jesus as He knew he would not be returning with that same physical body. That ascension into a cloud of light was simply to give those jesus prepared a jump start and the idea that he was representing a physical and many membered kingdom(government) that existed in outer space but had a different type of flesh from human. Paul went on to draw people to himself and he even said they should gravitate to him. What did anyone expect from him. He never knew Jesus, neve sat with him, ate with him, cried with him or laughted with him, nor understood much about what and who he really was as demonstated in most of his writings. The few things he got right were simly because of what he learned from those who were with Jesus. I can prove this by dozens and dozens of examples.

Now the space aliens don't want to show themselves for different reasons from the creator crew.

They don't want to be killed. They do want to be worshiped and served but they don't want humans to know it so they call it "brotherhood" or mentoring. They need what humans have: DNA, elements, access to energy development, etc. They know showign themselves to the masses is suicide for them and they think they are their bodies exclusively and once they are dead like humans they are without a chance of ever living again just like humans, unless the creator crew decides a soul is worth putting on ice to bring back for a new opportunity to say, experience trimester 2 and/or 3 (the one that just passed).

Yes, I am aware of much jesus spoke of that was essene practices for some - celebacy - making oneself a eunuch which Jesus said was for some who wanted to show their faith in that way. And he also supported Moses and Elijah and Enoch big time while bringing more light to many of the previous laws. LIke instead of an eye for an eye he said turn the other cheek. The only way that can be profitable is because the creator crew would see those who are willing to go that distance in faith and then would scoop up their spirit to ready them for their next stage towards graduation.

Jesus time frame was not a human time frame just as jesus definition of life and death were not a human definition. To him the last day might be 1000 yrs long and may start 1000 years from then. And sure he was teaching that you can't take it with you and that you really can't change the lenght of your life by much. But the reason it was considered impossible to be rich and enter into membership in the Kingdom of his FAther in the literal heavens was because eventualy a prospective candidate for membershp absolutely needs to "give their all". They need to put their faith in that incarnate member from the Level Above Human - become as a child in their looking to that Older Member. AS long as somone has their nest egg hidden away, they are not putting their trust in the representative sent them.

It's near impossible for me to say all I'd like to say and add all the references to the records in the short times I have to do so. If you want to see what I've written before on this and other subjects go to and examine the headlines on my podcasts in their archive while examinign the blog there, as well as the blog at and on youtube channel name: 3spm.

Atheism is a great step and actually religion and spirituality have their stepwise nature to them as well, but there is alwyas more thus although it's clear how corrupt the religons are, I too am anti-them in a big way but at the same time can't deny the history books pertaining to the one true real Kingdom aboved human that Ti and Do provided me insights on.
Comment by Michael on July 7, 2010 at 2:02am
Repeat my previous comment doubly.


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