Choosing and free will
We are all determinists even if we unaware of it. We do not expect the car to start by itself. We do not expect the grass to cut itself. We do not expect the food to make its way to our mouth without using a spoon or fork. We do not expect the window to open or close without our taking some action. I could go on and on, but I think you get the point.
When it comes to other behaviors, we expect them to happen by “magic”, or “free will’.. No cause. This really defiles logic if one thinks about it at all. “I decided to do it”, “I made up my mind to do it”. “I just wanted to do it”. I chose to do it”. All of these statements and many more like them are taken for granted. We never question them because they are so common in our culture and most other cultures.
In nature it’s easier to see some of the determinants. We know certain atmospheric conditions will produce certain results. Low pressure is likely to produce storms. High pressure is likely to produce some nice weather. We do not say the weather god does it or evil spirits or good spirits. We know there are certain determinants involved with producing whatever weather we experience.
We know animals will behave in certain ways given the right conditions. Geese fly south when winter approaches. Bears hibernate when the time comes. Snakes will strike under certain circumstances.
But you say, “Man is the exception”. We can magically decide, choose to do whatever we want to do with no relevant variables that might be involved in determining what we do. Just because we cannot always, or even often, see the determinants, this does not mean there is none involved.
I hold religion as being the primary contributor to this belief system. The whole guilt, punishment and sin concept is supported by free will. “You chose to do it, now we can punish you”. “You did it of your own free will, therefore we can say you are guilty and punish you.”
What I find really odd in a way, is the lack of interest in the whole subject of choosing or free will. It really must scare the hell out of people. Or, it just goes over our heads and we ignore the whole subject. Maybe some of you have some input on this. If so, I would really like to hear/see it.
When it comes to other behaviors, we expect them to happen by “magic”, or “free will’.. No cause. This really defiles logic if one thinks about it at all. “I decided to do it”, “I made up my mind to do it”. “I just wanted to do it”. I chose to do it”. All of these statements and many more like them are taken for granted. We never question them because they are so common in our culture and most other cultures.
In nature it’s easier to see some of the determinants. We know certain atmospheric conditions will produce certain results. Low pressure is likely to produce storms. High pressure is likely to produce some nice weather. We do not say the weather god does it or evil spirits or good spirits. We know there are certain determinants involved with producing whatever weather we experience.
We know animals will behave in certain ways given the right conditions. Geese fly south when winter approaches. Bears hibernate when the time comes. Snakes will strike under certain circumstances.
But you say, “Man is the exception”. We can magically decide, choose to do whatever we want to do with no relevant variables that might be involved in determining what we do. Just because we cannot always, or even often, see the determinants, this does not mean there is none involved.
I hold religion as being the primary contributor to this belief system. The whole guilt, punishment and sin concept is supported by free will. “You chose to do it, now we can punish you”. “You did it of your own free will, therefore we can say you are guilty and punish you.”
What I find really odd in a way, is the lack of interest in the whole subject of choosing or free will. It really must scare the hell out of people. Or, it just goes over our heads and we ignore the whole subject. Maybe some of you have some input on this. If so, I would really like to hear/see it.
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Comment by Reggie on June 1, 2009 at 8:49pm -
Aren't you really just describing cause and effect?
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Comment by Roger Tholen on June 2, 2009 at 1:38pm -
I think you are assuming the cause is free will. the whole object is to demonstrate that free will or choosing is nor a cause. So, the question begs to be answered, Then was what are the determining of the behavior.
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Comment by Roger Tholen on June 2, 2009 at 1:40pm
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(determinants)
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Comment by Reggie on June 3, 2009 at 12:13am
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The cause may have no relation to my control. Therefore, the situation may not be under my every control, but I don't think it negates free will. I have no say in being born a human, but that doesn't mean I have no choices to make as a human because I couldn't choose to be a meerkat.
But your first paragraph posits that we don't expect B to happen unless A happens. This is cause and effect as I understand it.
The second paragraph makes the illogical leap that I don't follow. Behaviours of humans are then lumped together with simpler cause and effect. At this point, I would ask how you define "free will"? Does making decisions within the confines of humanity make me a slave to determinism? Or do I still exercise free will within my human nature? Semantics becomes an issue at this point.
But then you take another leap to religion and the conceit of man. I think I know what your underlying sentiment is and I agree with it. Human conceit places himself above or outside of nature and this is very evident within religious beliefs. I just don't agree with the logical path taken to arrive there. I may be wrong in my assumptions of your message. Feel free to chastise me kindly if that is the case.
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Comment by Atheist Ninja on June 3, 2009 at 2:16am -
The human is an organic machine, and the brain is an electro-chemical computer. What one perceives as free will, is actually this computer calculating the correct action to take. Such an astronomical amount of variables are nested within each decision that it is, for all practical purposes, impossible to predetermine.
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Comment by Roger Tholen on June 3, 2009 at 1:28pm
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HI I would askReggie what evidence do you have for free will aside from the fact that nearly everyone believes this to be the case just like the god trip. It is an obligation on the one that says something exists to prove it. sAmuck, you come close to what is actually going on. Its mostly what the brain has been conditioned to do in a particular situation that determines what the person does. Reggie, If we use the terms cause and effect, we are still stuck with "What is the cause?" We really have not added any more info. I don't define free will in the same way I don't define god. Neither one is a reality. Neither one exists
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Comment by Reggie on June 3, 2009 at 2:45pm
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Amuck: I thought I covered that ground in my previous post when I asked "Does making decisions within the confines of humanity make me a slave to determinism?" If merely being human and working within human capacity negates free will, then I guess I agree that we have no free will. If you were merely expounding on that point, then I offer my apologies.
Roger: I have no proof of free will any more than I have proof of determinism. I guess I find your premise either poorly devised or an irrelevant one. Perhaps I don't understand what you mean by "free will"? Can you define "free will" for me as you are using it? If I knew better what you mean then I may be better able to say whether I agree or disagree.
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Comment by Rev. James Thomas Hicks, D.D. on June 4, 2009 at 11:04am -
Correct. I didn't choose to sleep with all 'em women. It's not my fault... I blame my glands.
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Comment by Atheist Ninja on June 4, 2009 at 1:16pm
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Having consequences for inappropriate actions, such as prison, is an integral part in adding a variable to the decision making process that would prevent many from taking actions that would be detrimental to society. So whether it's a punishment putting them at fault or not, it's a much needed system.
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Comment by Roger Tholen on June 4, 2009 at 6:16pm
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There are so many statements and questions, I will write another blog to answer them. they are very good questions and I appreciate them. I am determined to answer them. LOL By the way, there are only three variable which determine the behavior. Its really not all that complicated, but to implement these three variables is another story. But at least being able to state them is a step in the right direction.
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