Chat with a Fundie
My friend Tim is an Fundamentalist, or as he puts it a "Bible-believing Christian." As an atheist, I think it's perfectly fine to have a fundamentalist friend, afterall... it's not like their dogma is going to persuade us, right? So, what's the harm in being friends with them? To my knowledge, Tim has no idea that I'm an atheist, and I will never tell him. We have been friends since I was a sophomore in high school and I don't wish to ruin that relationship. I thought it was funny that many of my high school friends thought we should "go out." I was thinking - Nope. Not gonna happen. If I'm just friends with Tim then I will not have to get too close to him, that is I will not have to get close enough to have fights over religion and politics.
Tim and I were having a friendly discussion yesterday... and somehow it got to religion. I saw him in the college's cafe and stopped by to have a chat. As usual he had his Bible out, along with his homework. He was ignoring his Bible at the moment and focusing on studying his binder for a class of which I don't know. I noticed, rather amused, that his worn, beaten up, black-leather cover Bible was stuffed with a million and a half papers of various colors, shapes and sizes.
So, after a few moments of silence I inclined to ask him about the paper stuffed in his Bible, as my curiousity was up. Tim thinks I'm an "agnostic" [or his view of an agnostic] - therefore, in his mind, I can still be saved. He HAS attempted to "save me" several times, none of his attempts have worked of course. lol
He has invited me to attend his church several times, although I was understandably reluctant at first, I eventually honored his request and attended church with him. I was impressed that his pastor talked more about the "love of God," than politics and hellfire and brimstone. I haven't gone back to church with him since, but I'm considering it, as I have to keep my image with him and his family if I am to remain friends with them. I can't let them know I'm an "atheist in disguise." Tim has also read several bible passages to me and encouraged me [through a facebook private message] - he must have seen my facebook religious status, which was "agnostic" at the time - that I was "a lost sheep" and that "God will find me." Being a former theist myself, I appreciated his efforts to console me in what he thought was "my struggling" and to be kind to me. You must understand that such a message from a fundie should be considered a compliment rather than an insult. It's when they start shouting at you about damnation that you should tune them out and consider them insulting.
Anyhow, back to the discussion...
When I asked him about the papers in his Bible, he turned red and said he had a million flyers for all kinds of things in there and that he needed to clean it out. - BTW... it's not the first time I've seen theists put flyers in their Bibles, it's just I had never seen so many in one.
The reason why I am friends with and often talk to Tim, is because he is a nice person and I feel sorry for him because he is a highly intelligent young man, but unfortunately, he has been so badly brainwashed that he won't pick up a book that doesn't line up with his childhood indoctrination. If he ever does learn the truth, which he very well might considering his intelligence, he will be freed, but also highly devastated... even more so than me. Since fundies build their entire lives on their beliefs, if those beliefs fall to pieces, they may fall to pieces as well. However, it is doubtful that he may ever lose his faith as he is a passive, shy personality and is most likely not rebellious enough to challenge it. My hope is that by me being friends with him I can subtly put questions in his head that will lead him to question his faith - the first step to freeing yourself from it.
Eventually our conversation turned to politics. Tim was telling me about how he liked Mike Huckabee... to which I didn't mention to him that I don't. He went on to tell me [when I brought up atheism - without revealing information that would indicate I was one] - he said that he had heard of atheists that had turned back to God. "So maybe there was hope for them yet." - I was skeptical of this but I remained silent and listened.
He again invited me to come to his new church [his family left his old one b/c apparently they had changed pastors]. I told him I would see if I had time in my schedule.
This conversation should be an encouragement for atheists to speak to theists on good terms... something which I think is an essential piece to getting correct information about us out there and [sometimes] being able to reveal to people their own irrationality.
Tim and I were having a friendly discussion yesterday... and somehow it got to religion. I saw him in the college's cafe and stopped by to have a chat. As usual he had his Bible out, along with his homework. He was ignoring his Bible at the moment and focusing on studying his binder for a class of which I don't know. I noticed, rather amused, that his worn, beaten up, black-leather cover Bible was stuffed with a million and a half papers of various colors, shapes and sizes.
So, after a few moments of silence I inclined to ask him about the paper stuffed in his Bible, as my curiousity was up. Tim thinks I'm an "agnostic" [or his view of an agnostic] - therefore, in his mind, I can still be saved. He HAS attempted to "save me" several times, none of his attempts have worked of course. lol
He has invited me to attend his church several times, although I was understandably reluctant at first, I eventually honored his request and attended church with him. I was impressed that his pastor talked more about the "love of God," than politics and hellfire and brimstone. I haven't gone back to church with him since, but I'm considering it, as I have to keep my image with him and his family if I am to remain friends with them. I can't let them know I'm an "atheist in disguise." Tim has also read several bible passages to me and encouraged me [through a facebook private message] - he must have seen my facebook religious status, which was "agnostic" at the time - that I was "a lost sheep" and that "God will find me." Being a former theist myself, I appreciated his efforts to console me in what he thought was "my struggling" and to be kind to me. You must understand that such a message from a fundie should be considered a compliment rather than an insult. It's when they start shouting at you about damnation that you should tune them out and consider them insulting.
Anyhow, back to the discussion...
When I asked him about the papers in his Bible, he turned red and said he had a million flyers for all kinds of things in there and that he needed to clean it out. - BTW... it's not the first time I've seen theists put flyers in their Bibles, it's just I had never seen so many in one.
The reason why I am friends with and often talk to Tim, is because he is a nice person and I feel sorry for him because he is a highly intelligent young man, but unfortunately, he has been so badly brainwashed that he won't pick up a book that doesn't line up with his childhood indoctrination. If he ever does learn the truth, which he very well might considering his intelligence, he will be freed, but also highly devastated... even more so than me. Since fundies build their entire lives on their beliefs, if those beliefs fall to pieces, they may fall to pieces as well. However, it is doubtful that he may ever lose his faith as he is a passive, shy personality and is most likely not rebellious enough to challenge it. My hope is that by me being friends with him I can subtly put questions in his head that will lead him to question his faith - the first step to freeing yourself from it.
Eventually our conversation turned to politics. Tim was telling me about how he liked Mike Huckabee... to which I didn't mention to him that I don't. He went on to tell me [when I brought up atheism - without revealing information that would indicate I was one] - he said that he had heard of atheists that had turned back to God. "So maybe there was hope for them yet." - I was skeptical of this but I remained silent and listened.
He again invited me to come to his new church [his family left his old one b/c apparently they had changed pastors]. I told him I would see if I had time in my schedule.
This conversation should be an encouragement for atheists to speak to theists on good terms... something which I think is an essential piece to getting correct information about us out there and [sometimes] being able to reveal to people their own irrationality.
-
Comment by Skycomet the Fallen Angel on January 28, 2010 at 11:39am -
I spoke with him again today... and I may have made some leway with him. Part of me hopes that I have and part of me is terrified that I may have. Despite my rationality I still have human emotions and care about my friends. I know the extreme pain of deconversion... and part of me doesn't want that to happen to him.
I appalled him when I mentioned the passage in one of the letters of Paul that is the most gynophobic. "As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached?" (1 Cor. 14:33b-36 NIV).
He didn't believe me that it was in there... but I could see horror and personal doubt on his face. I was surprised by the fear for him I felt. When I left him he was searching his bible for the passage.
-
Comment by Dave G on January 28, 2010 at 11:46am -
He may have just been set upon the path to reason. Reading the Bible (all of it, not just the nice parts or the parts that agree with your beliefs) has caused a crisis of faith in more than a few religious people.
-
Comment by Skycomet the Fallen Angel on January 28, 2010 at 1:53pm
-
Adriana - I'm thinking that you don't have any friends who are fundamentalists.
I am "working with Tim."
Surprisingly, fundamentalists may be easier to start the deconversion process in than non-literalists. B/C they believe in the bible literally, and yet believe in a loving god... they most likely don't notice or don't bother to read about passages such as the one above.
However, YOU CANNOT GET THROUGH TO FUNDIES AS AN OPEN ATHEIST!!! If you wish to help a fundamentalist come to rationality, there are a couple of factors that you must consider before even starting.
1. You must get to know the fundamentalist VERY well - I'm talking years.... I've known Tim for about 5 years now.
2. You must make sure that the fundamentalist is intelligent enough that he/ she CAN question their faith. - Unfortunately the non-intelligent ones are like sheep... they won't usually stop to think about it for very long.
3. You CAN'T reveal that your an atheist to the fundie. - how can you do this? - my suggestion, A. Be kind and supportive and friendly to them. If they ask you to go to church or give you a religious gift accept it greatfully while smiling, even if your stomach is turning over. B. Make sure that you reveal yourself as either an "agnostic" [most fundies dont know that agnostics are atheists], "I don't know what I believe," or "non-denomination christian." - okay... so some of these are lies... but they're white lies... if you told the truth, that you're an atheist I GUARANTEE that they will shut you out!
C. Don't be too obvious about trying to get the fundie to question their beliefs and NEVER use science or logic as a method to try to get them to do so - remember that science and logic mean little to them... their lives are wrapped around the Bible, so use only bible verses. And DON'T argue with them. - With Tim, I just asked a question, while putting a look of concern on my face... "I'm a little disturbed by one of the passages in the letters of Paul, Tim. It says that 'women can't speak in church.'" - That was one that he had to question. Don't give them ones about "god punishing ppl.." b/c a lot of them believe in an angry god... give them ones that don't make sense in the modern world... like "don't eat pork..." or the one about a child that backsasses his father must be killed. - Something that appeals to their heart and won't line up with what they think they know about God... i.e. that "God is loving but vengeful and just." - Try to find one where the bible doesn't say that the ppl did anything wrong.
- Also try asking it in "concerned doubtful" format rather than "you should be questioning this" format. - I've found that works for me.
Non-fundies are ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE to work with. Since they don't interpret the bible literally you can't use rediculous passages to make them question their faith. I don't yet know how to work with them.
-
Comment by Skycomet the Fallen Angel on January 28, 2010 at 4:01pm
-
It's not that I so much have a passion with decoverting others as I [being a former theist and living among current theists] have analyzed their behavior patterns and the way they think and have hypothesized what you see above as potential ways for people who ARE very interested in "freeing them." This is only a hypothesis. I am working with my friend Tim because I see potential in Tim for rationality and as a good friend of his, I don't like to see him suffer from dogmatic brainwashing. - And he does suffer.... his view of the world is highly distorted and he suffers from the fear induced by being constantly on guard to keep his worldview from being challenged.
-
Comment by Skycomet the Fallen Angel on January 28, 2010 at 4:03pm
-
And also... if you do attempt this, the idea is to set your approach so that they WON'T become "irrational and hostile." - That's why I suggested a "highly gentle, emotional approach." But I get where you're coming from.
-
Comment by Matthew on January 28, 2010 at 9:36pm -
I just couldnt stand not being who i am as athiest. i cant even do agnostic to someone and consider them a friend because i am not agnostic. if i were to be asked by someone, i would tell them im athiest.
-
Comment by Skycomet the Fallen Angel on January 29, 2010 at 9:56am
-
Jean Marie: I'm often amused HOW OFTEN theists sorta treat me AS IF i have not been exposed to religion
Jean Marie... I've often experienced this same thing.... with my family [who - other than my agnostic best friend - are the only ones who know I'm an atheist... and BTW... I respect my best friend - whom I convinced to join this site ^_^ because she is rationally minded and skeptical... she may even be an atheist herself but I sometimes suspect she's either unaware of it, or doesn't like the negative connotation given to the word "atheist." - But my family is different, when I try to correct them with regards to the Bible by using verses from it in response to their verses, they just tell me "don't tell me about my religion, you don't know anything about it."
I'm more irritated than amused though. I wish I had your calm, laid-back spirit. *sigh* I know more about Xtianity than most theists do! - Ironically, that's WHY I'm an atheist. lol, b/c learning about the TRUE xtianity [not the one they teach in sunday school] revealed it's hidden rancid underbelly and turned me away.
Comment
What's new today
Events
Forum
Accosted
Started by Keith Pulley in Advice. Last reply by Doug Reardon 1 hour ago. 16 Replies 0 Likes
Blog Posts
The Republicans accelerate their downward spiral
Posted by Unseen on June 19, 2013 at 1:26pm 8 Comments 0 Likes
Videos
Services we love
Check out our new mobile/tablet version of Think Atheist! www.ThinkAtheist.com/m
© 2013 Created by Morgan Matthew.
You need to be a member of Think Atheist to add comments!
Join Think Atheist