Comment by Denise Kiser on December 17, 2012 at 2:30am

Ha Ha Ha korsan thats fantastic! I love it..... thanks! Oh my Darwin.. I have not heard this clip of his before and I had the same thought about higher power....I thought along the same lines well if I am powerless over alcohol and i need a power greater than myself....alcohol is a power greater than me per the first step....ummm...the gwinnet county judicial system is a power greater than me (especially when i was hand cuffed).....ha ha ha

Comment by jared manley on December 17, 2012 at 3:09am

 Skeptical regress.

 1st) "man Jared 11 years they did a number on you, argumentative and you sound very angry"

 The first part is abusive slant. This means you have no actual reason for your evaluation. You are trying to pass this part off as to not draw attention to the hard part. You are papering over cracks to hide the weakness of your argument.The second part "argumentative" is correct because I have disagreed with you however stating that I "sound angry" doesn't make it so. In fact it is false.

 We argue for 3 reasons: Persuasion, explanation and justification. You have given none of the 3. Only your opinion. Even after we both agreed on the assumption (that AA is unnecessary). So in reality you are the combative one and only because I disagreed. Perhaps the south has done a number on you. ;)

 There are a bunch of "studies" that are getting "closer" to things we'd like to believe as well. That is not passable as truth. Like I said before "I am a seeker of truth" but perhaps you didn't read that part. I have only spoke facts and you give opinion. Maybe you are use to being babied but I don't even baby babies when it comes to the truth. I look for the flaws in my own arguments. Do you?

 "good old science is getting closer" I can tell by comments like this that you argue for show. What does the word "good" mean here? Does it mean Beneficial? If so it is not beneficial until that science is proven accurate and apparently it has not. Therefore you have twisted it, It seems like you are talking to a crowd. Lets face it as George Carlin said "two people in the elevator, one of them farts they both know who did it." There is no lying or twisting it. You added your own connotation to the science that you sited and it is not yet "good" science.

Comment by Bill Butler on December 17, 2012 at 4:33am

Denise

Hi I have been in your spot I got sober and became an Atheist at about the same time in fact getting sober really led to my Atheist awakening. I left religion at 15 after get caught drinking a clear violation of my father’s church he asked if I wanted to continue going and I said no and I never looked back. I spent the next several years partying and not even thinking about what I believed about god and religion until I entered rehab at 22. I was told all about AA and the belief in a Higher Power and I had a real problem from day one after the life I had lived and the things I had seen and done there was no way I could believe in the god of my childhood. I did what I felt I had to at the time and kept my mouth shut I said the prayers read the book and tried to work the steps and it worked at first. About two years in I started to really identify myself as a Atheist but only to a few close friends we did not have the worldwide presence we do today. There is a phrase in the rooms “Take what you need and leave the rest “ this really captures the spirit of what I did I took just what I needed from AA and left the other BS behind. AA has great fundamentals for the newly sober to learn so do that but keep your wits about you there is a cult like atmosphere in AA and it can be hard to avoid. I stopped going to AA after about six years they taught me what I needed to know and I thank them for that but it is not the only way by a long shot. I have been sober for 18 years now and I have only attended one meeting in the last 10 years to help a friend who needed to go.  Any way I have a happy rich life today I am by no means a dry drunk I have balance and serenity and I deal with my problems as they come. My point is that you are not alone and you do have valid concerns about the program and their blatant abuses of people’s weekend state to push religious belief just know you don’t have to take it all you can leave what you don’t want. Oh and feel free to contact me if you have any questions or just need a sober Atheist to talk to.

Bill

Comment by Noel on December 17, 2012 at 6:45am

Denise: Easy does it. What ever works right?

My first six years in the program were doable because of my false belief in god. I really could not do it alone. I look back on it today and call it my very own personal mind fuck. It was! I convinced myself that the mental aspect of my disease was best left to a "Higher Power". The first six years were spent identifying with others in the rooms and not really getting much work done on myself.

I've been off the hooch for 22 years now. Haven't had a taste since April 10, 1990. I do it one day at a time. I stay close to my wife and children. I heed "People, places, and things". That's a biggy right there! Someone once told me, "you don't go to the dentist to get your eye's checked so why would you go to a bar to have a coke?"…..

Coming out of rehab I had nowhere to go. My first wife had kicked me out of the house and, for the first time in my life, I found myself alone. I spoke to a roommate at the rehab and he said: "You got the world by the balls. You don't have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of but you can start over!"…… He was so right. My life is so much better today….

I get that we don't believe in the whole higher power aspect of AA. But most people that attend those meetings do. And it's what get's them through their Ism's and addictions. I can identify with you and our atheism when it comes to dealing with our disease with out the crutch of a higher power. They feel that they can't do it without their higher powers help. What ever works...

If you can't find any secular groups to stay sober in, my advice is to continue making AA meetings and make allowances for the whole religious part of the meetings. It's like an article I read where more and more well off Islamist, in the middle east, send their children to Catholic university's because, despite the difference in religions, these universities offer the same strict adherence to issues of behavior that their own islamic religion's dictate. If attending AA meetings helps you to stay sober, one day at a time, then, right now, that's the most important thing. One other alcoholic told me once, "chase your sobriety like you chased your addiction. This is how bad I want to stay sober; I'll jump out that window and I don't know what floor I'm on…." 

Good luck. Keep it simple….

Comment by Denise Kiser on December 17, 2012 at 12:02pm

Thank you Bill and Noel! I appreciate the suggestion!!!

Jared I am not trying to argue...I am looking for suggestions and feedback. If you do not like what I posted in my blog do not comment.  The proof that you are angry is in the way you write. The proof that you want to control the conversation is in the amount you post. You filled up page two of my blog posts. I am getting a lot of good information from other people and would prefer Jared if you share to please keep it short I do not want to miss a post that I find beneficial because of your "give me attention" rantings. Some of my content may be my opinion, its my damn blog if I want to post my opinion I will, do not like it or agree move on....no one else that has posted has shared your same opinion...

Comment by Reg The Fronkey Farmer on December 17, 2012 at 12:14pm

FYI

Comment by Denise Kiser on December 17, 2012 at 12:37pm

Thanks for the Information Reg....I am defiantly respectful of the beliefs of the members who attend AA....there faith is important to them..I am trying to have an open mind .I would be more inclined to be more open minded to AA if the success rate was higher according to EVERY statistical source I have read (AA included) it does not work....period...people do not stay sober going to AA...I wish it worked....I want it to work and I want to attend a peer group of people who are also in my situation....I do not believe that this is necessary in order for me to not drink again but it would be helpful....From what I read 95% of people who attend AA leave within the first month and less than 5% that do stick around stay sober for a full year (AA even verifies these stats)....I need to look up the stats for Secular recovery I have not done so yet....maybe the high relapse rate is not due to AA maybe the disease of addiction itself has a high relapse rate and that is just the nature of the disease....yes i think addiction is a physical disease....I really appreciate the people who have posted that have shared their own struggles with addiction...very helpful!!!!

Comment by Ray R. on December 17, 2012 at 1:29pm

I agree with everything you've said Denise . You are on the right path , using your mind critically,and for self empowerment . I believe that's a great combination , and you'll do just fine . Good luck !

Comment by Jim P. on December 17, 2012 at 5:40pm

Denise,

i am an alcoholic with a little more that 2 years of sobriety and I also am an atheist. i agree with you there are not very many of us in AA. However, I have not found my open atheism to be a problem in the meetings I attend. If necessary when i share on a topic, I work my lack of a belief in supernatural beings or forces, whether called God, Allah, Buddha, into a discussion of how the steps and attending meetings has helped me stay sober and generally have a better quality of life than  did when I was drinking. Often, I am approached after the meetings by people who thank me for sharing about the way an atheist can get benefits from the program. All of them think that I am sober because of god, of course, but none of them make any effort to proselytize for their god. I don't tell them that their god is imaginary and its their belief in god, and not god, that is the source of their strength. So we get along just fine.

I doubt I will stay in AA forever, because being around a group of people who believe in fairy tales and live their live accordingly is frustrating, but when we talk about alcoholism and how it affects us I find a lot of common ground and support and its what I need at this point.

The AA Third Tradition says 'The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking" and most groups follow that tradition to the letter. I looked for an atheist/agnostic group when I first started and couldn't find one. Part of the reason is there are so few atheists in AA, but the other reason  ( I think) is that AA doesn't recognize groups that are exclusive. A group has to be open to all who desire to stop drinking to be associated with AA.

I hope you get some benefit from AA, or that you find an alternative support group. If your sponsor presses you about god, remind her that its the god of your understanding, which can be a  Group Of Drunks. Above all, don't let god get in the way of your sobriety. Good Luck.

Comment by jared manley on December 17, 2012 at 9:20pm

OK. Short and simple. Logic and reason is more beneficial than opinion.

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