Comment by Ray R. on December 16, 2012 at 8:48pm

Denise I agree with you that AA is a profoundly religious , proselytizing , organization . I believe you should give yourself full credit for your recovery and sobriety , not AA , certainly not god . You may have developed close friends and support within the AA community , and that's wonderful . I would like to point out that the statistics for recovery within AA aren't too encouraging . Less than a 5% success rate , ( which is the same as no treatment of any kind ) . Have you checked out the Secular Organizations for Sobriety (SOS) ? They have chapters and meetings in all 50 States . They are a non 12 step based program , with peer group meetings , and , as their title suggests , are completely areligious . I truly wish you the very best .

Comment by Ed on December 16, 2012 at 9:08pm

Denise,

While the atmosphere of AA may not be comforting to you as an atheist I applaud your willingness to demonstrate that someone's recovery is not dependent on an invisible supernatural being. As you stand your ground as an atheist and continue your quest for sobriety the others at AA will have to take notice. Intestinal fortitude can be cloaked as a god but you certainly know the difference. Ramon's suggestion might have merit for you. I wish you the best in your struggle.

Comment by Denise Kiser on December 16, 2012 at 9:18pm

Thanks so much for the comments! I was not sure if this was an appropriate place to bring up this issue. I am going to google secular organizations for sobriety now....

Comment by Strega on December 16, 2012 at 9:27pm

wiki has a page dedicated to it, Denise - with lots of onward links.  Good luck!

Comment by Denise Kiser on December 16, 2012 at 10:05pm

I just googled the SOS site and found excellent contacts and information! Thanks again!!! Unfortunately I am in such a rural part of Georgia (the closest meeting is 40 miles away) there are no groups here. I am in Gods country Yall! (sigh, shake my head)..... Due to a second DUI I can not drive for a while.( Apparently even if you do not remember driving while intoxicated it still counts as a DUI.) But, I can contact some of the members by email! I am going to find out the length of time required to start an SOS meeting. Maybe I can just start one here? I may be the only one in attendance ha ha ha...but I know I am not going to fit in well with AA...if I were a quiet passive atheist I could coast for a  while but I am a loud opinionated anti theist kinda of atheist....when i hear bull shit my mouth just starts a movin or in the case of facebook my fingers start a typin....I either get unfriendly, witnessed too, or called a variety of names my favorite being "the devil"     

Comment by Denise Kiser on December 16, 2012 at 10:07pm

*unfriended

Comment by Strega on December 16, 2012 at 10:28pm

Go ahead and start one Denise :)

Comment by Ray R. on December 16, 2012 at 10:40pm

Yeah , it's sad how AA attempts to cram it's religious dogma down the throats of people who are at their most vulnerable . The so called twelve steps are nothing more than a thinly veiled attempt at backdoor, fundamentalist Christianity . They continually lose in court whenever mandatory attendance to their meetings is challenged , ( and it should be) . They have not changed their techniques since they were set up in the 1930's . I would ask what branch of science hasn't profoundly changed over this period of time . What never changes is religion , which is precisely what AA is .

Comment by jared manley on December 16, 2012 at 10:52pm

I should say that I have never had a drug or alcohol related offense, Back in the '90's when Charter Hospitals were at there prime and everyone and their brother (and their dog) was put on Prozac I got into a little trouble with the law. I was given the choice of an all male lock up facility, no smoking, out in the boonies, with people who had actually killed people and the like or 90 days in a non-lock down, co-ed, 5 cigarettes a day treatment center. Which do you think I chose?

 The charges against me were assault and battery on an officer of law and obstructing justice. For the record This is what happened: My younger brother had run from a "boy's ranch". They called and told us that since he had 2 weeks left to serve that he could simply come back and do the time and that would release him as previously planned. My brother arrived at home and i talked to him. He was willing to go back. We called the police to drive him back (my mother quadriplegic and didn't drive me (age 15) not old enough to have a license). They came to get him.

 They began treating him like a criminal (they were only there for transport) and started to handcuff him. He started to cry. I asked "Do you have to cuff him? I mean he's willing to go..." The response I got was "It's just part of procedure  -please step out of the room." I did. From the other room I asked again "but do you have to cuff him?" At that point the officer that wasn't sitting on top of my brother literally started strangling me. I know because I've had plenty of self defense in my life and there is no other explanation for me ending up with both of his thumbs cranked around and ready to snap them. We were at a stand still. His partner began choking me from behind and  when I was about to pass out I released the thumbs and was thrown to the floor and handcuffed. After being cuffed the cop that had originally attacked me sarted punching me in the face so much that it was swollen and bruised on one side and carpet burned on the other. His partner made him stop so he went back to restrain my feet and got kicked in the forehead. Anyway thats the story. I was shy and inarticulate as a child and that is one of the main reasons I am not now.

 So I went to treatment. I thought about how I could never go back, never be in trouble again and never be told when to shit again. I spent 11 years in AA after the initial reprogramming.

 I started with a piece of paper that I written down what a God or a Higher Power should be on it. Then Christianity got there hooks in me. As you can see I have liberated myself since.

 I say all of this just to qualify my next couple of comments:

1) Whereas AA is religious (in behavior) it only asks you to find a "power greater than yourself" There is debate about the G word but mostly it comes down to the Higher power. Einstein, Sagan and the likes have referred to God and or creator but without religious or even deistic connotation.

 2) even if it is "religious" there are religions that have no deities involved. One that comes to mind is Buddhism. They have a prophet who they claim has reached nirvana that is all.

3) The 12 steps were originally 6 steps. It was the outline for a support forum called "the Oxford group". It was held in a church and they asked that you believed in God (maybe even the christian god but I don't remember). Anyway Bill W. and Dr Bob went on to create the 12 steps because they felt a lot of people had been burned by religion (mostly Christianity I suspect) so they made the revisions and poof -AA.

 Anyway if you studied the "big book" then you know that already. If you know much about religion you would know that some don't have deities involved so you could easily call the cosmos a power greater than yourself and even justify how that will keep you sober.

 I wonder why you didn't google " secular alternatives to alcoholics anonymous"

 Anyway for me I think it's good enough for you to take credit for your own footwork and strive to better yourself and continue with out ever setting foot in another meeting of the likes.

Comment by Denise Kiser on December 16, 2012 at 11:06pm

I had a discussion with a women who approached me after a meeting.... she saw that I was new and offered to be my sponsor..I explained that I was agnostic (I am really an atheist but saying I am agnostic is a little softer for the religious in the south, say the word atheist and you are looked at like you eat new born babies and rip the "do not remove" tags off of matteresses)..we had a discussion about AA being a religious group....she tried to tell me it was not and pointed me to a chapter in their book called "the chapter to the agnostics" I really do not think she has read that particular chapter.....to sum it up the writer says its ok to be agnostic and you are welcomed in AA....then the writer goes on to say that they too where once an agnostic...then in a very sweet way the writer asks the reader to keep an open mind and nothing more....well by the end of the chapter it is believe in God or else you will never recover...and this quote "who are you to question the existence of God" ....They do hone in on new comers...its like a shark feeding frenzy the sad thing is these people really do believe what they are doing is helpful... I believe most the members are good people....crazy as hell but good people..further proof that they are a religion 1. prayer before meeting 2. the lords prayer from the bible at the end of the meeting 3. step 4 requires confession of wrong doings (can we say Catholicism?)

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