Argument between me and a Christian, Continued.

I previously posted an argument between me and Dave Harrisson on a Facebook poll. The epic argument continues.

Dave Harrisson: Dave Harrison: Satan has killed billions. Do Hitler, Mao, Stalin, and Osama Bin Laden (just to name a few) ring a bell. That also includes those that killed in the name of Jesus. They bought the lie and had nothing to do with "true Christianity". And then EVERYBODY who he lied to about who is responsible for the very evil you accuse God of, that died without knowing their Lord. Satan has come to steal, kill, and destroy. You have bought the lie that God is responsible for the evil in this world. It is satan that is responsible, and the people who follow his lead. You have no idea what you are talking about. And BTW, it's not for me to convince you of anything. That is the Holy Spirit that does that. BTW, God has answered your prayer after all. He sent you a messenger, and all you did in response is curse God and accuse Him of evil. You are on very dangerous ground... Repent and turn to the Lord before it is to late. He is here to save you from darkness and sin. "in the last days, men will call darkness light and light darkness. they will mistake evil for good and good for evil". That is what you are doing Craig. When Jesus Christ was on earth, He harmed nobody. He healed everybody that came to Him. He delivered those that were oppressed and possessed. He brought salvation to a dieing world. Your accusations will not change those facts. You will not succeed in defaming the Lord. Again, you must repent and stop repeating the lies of satan. As it stands, he has you. When you die, you will be dead indeed if you do not repent. Hell is a very real place, and those that refuse to know Him will go there. Where and when you are born has NOTHING to do with it. YOU choose what you believe. Your circumstances have NOTHING to do with it. How "good" you think you are has nothing to do with it. It has everything to do with a "relationship" with the living God. Thus far, you have chosen not to have the relationship with Him that you were created to have. Therefore you condemn yourself. You have knowledge of God. You have heard the word of salvation. Jesus Christ IS that word. If you chose to continue in denial of the truth and follow satan's lies, then you have made your choice. You will have the reward that is due to you.
I know I am speaking very strongly. It is because I care about you, more than you know. That is because Jesus cares for you more than you know. He wants a relationship with you. All you have to do is respond to His invitation Craig. He IS the answer to whatever has hurt you enough to hate God. You have placed that hate in the wrong place. Jesus Christ loves you, or He would not have sent me to discuss this with you. REPENT and be Baptized, and you will be saved. I am praying for you.

Me: "Do Hitler, Mao, Stalin, and Osama Bin Laden Ring a bell." (Questions usually have question marks at the end)

Yes, and I believe that Hitler was a Catholic.

"You have bought the lie that God is responsible for the evil in this world."

Where in the bible does it say that Satan caused the flood in Noah's Ark? Where does it say that Satan caused the plagues in Egypt?

"BTW, God has answered your prayer after all. He sent you a messenger, and all you did in response is curse God and accuse Him of evil."

You're claiming to be a messager of god? What an arrogant thing to say. I'm quite sure god would not send some random idiot on the internet who I've never met before to be his prophet.

"When you die, you will be dead indeed if you do not repent. Hell is a very real place, and those that refuse to know Him will go there."

Now that defianatly was a threat and I'm not scared. I refuse to believe in a god who is the primary cause of conflict in the world, preaches racism, sexism, homophobia, and ignorance, and then sends me to hell if I’m ‘bad’. And then he offers no chance for redemption? If hell is as bad as it's reputed for than I'm quite sure a short period of time there could change a person for the better.

"Where and when you are born has NOTHING to do with it. YOU choose what you believe."

Yes it does! If my parents happened to be Buddhist than I would have been raised and taught to be a Buddhist! Not a Christian! Having been raised in that environment, I would've been a completely different person than one raised in a Christian environment! I chose what to believe giving the logical, and practical choices that are presented to me!

"How "good" you think you are has nothing to do with it. It has everything to do with a "relationship" with the living God. "

So as long as you love god you go to heaven? Do you have any idea how many murderers, rapists, pedophiles and theaves would be walking around heaven? You sir, are very confused. Given your personality you're probably anti-gay as well and belive that they're all damned for being born that way.
If he exists and loves me that he can show it without using confused idiots on the internet like you. You can keep putting your hands together and thinking to yourself as much as you like but it's not going to change anything.

Dave Harrisson: Because I am a messenger doesn't mean I'm a prophet. I simply explained to you the love of God. That is what a messenger does, brings a message.
Just because you were born Buddhist or anything else for that matter, doesn't mean you can't find the truth. Especially when you have heard it, and you have.
Just because you claim to be Catholic, doesn't mean you are a Christian. BTW, I have repeatedly explained that to you. Start listening to everything that is said, instead of picking and choosing.
I still have not threatened you. I spoke the truth, plain and simple. Apparently... "you can't handle the truth"... lol
Yes, through sin, satan did cause the flood, and the plagues on Egypt. And BTW, the plagues would not have been sent if Pharaoh would have let his... uh... SLAVES go, which just happened to be the chosen people of God in the dispensation of the law. I guess you are for slavery? Wow... look at that. No typo this time... lol
It is a good thing that God forgives ANY sinner that comes to Him. Yes, rapists, murderers, even Hitler if he would have repented. You are welcome as well!
I would rather be considered an idiot for the Lord, than a worldly wise man without Him. And yes, I will pray for you.
As far as any sinner, I am not against any, including Gay people. I have Gay colleagues who are very good at what they do. They are no different than me. I love the sinner, but I hate the sin. Sin is sin, no matter what it is. God is there for everybody, including Gays, if they repent of their sins.

And finally, I will not stoop to insulting you as you have repeatedly tried to do to me. You see, there is more to life than hating somebody for anything that they may have said or done. I forgive you for your insults. I love you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Me: How are we suppossed to know which religion is the truth? There are way too many and no more reason to believe one as to the other. "I can't handle the truth?" I think it's you who can't. You refuse to believe evolution because you don't want to give up your traditional belief.
Satan got people to sin so god decides he has to ruthlessly slaughter everyone without any warning? Very merciful.
And no, I'm not for slavery. I just don't think ruthless genocide is necessarily the solution. So "Thou shall not kill" doesn't apply when you feel they deserve it?

"It is a good thing that God forgives ANY sinner that comes to Him. Yes, rapists, murderers, even Hitler if he would have repented."

So god picks a few of his favourite murders and rapists into heaven and lets the others suffer?

"Sin is sin, no matter what it is. God is there for everybody, including Gays, if they repent of their sins."

They have to repent being born the way god created them? You believe they have to be ashamed of being born like that to get into heaven? You sicken me.

Dave Harrisson: Romans 1: 24- 32. I didn't say it... He did. If you actually read this scripture, it will enlighten you. You can find it online if you don't have a Bible handy.

Again, and again and again... He doesn't pick and choose. The individual chooses of his own free will.

Did you know that Pharaoh killed off all the first born Jews first? Did you know that God sent prophets to warn the people before they were destroyed? God has always given the first opportunity to repent and obey His commands. It has always been up to the people to comply. So yes, satan is responsible.

By "truly seeking" the truth, you will know it. I suspect that if you let go of your hatred for God, you will hear a still small voice within you bearing witness to the truth. You know in your heart. It's there pricking your conscience all the time. If you drown it out with hatred, you will never be able to hear it.
I actually think evolution within the species is for real. I think it was part of Gods creation so that we could adapt to changing conditions on earth. I just don't believe the modern myth that everything started from absolutely nothing and developed without intervention into the complex and beautiful creation that we see around us. Except for that which man has proven so proficient at destroying. So you see, they actually work together.
Gay people can be delivered from their sin, just like an adulterer, murderer, liar, etc... They are all sins that come from the heart of man through he temptation of satan. God stands ready when you are.

Me: I read "Romans 1: 24-32" and why is it I feel more nauseous than enlightened? You're saying people *CHOOSE* to be gay? Did you chose to straight? Did you chose your gender? Did you chose your race? I don't think you did! That is (excuse my language) a fucking load of bullshit!

If one guy comes and says "What you're doing is wrong," the whole people won't necessarily listen. I'm not saying slavery is right, I'm just saying genocide is wrong. And did you know God created Satan?

Where has that little voice been during all those years that I wasted trying to find god? Why can't he just speak up a little bit?
What "modern myth that everything started from nothing?" I never said it came from nothing. I'm just saying it didn't come from a big, white, male living in the sky! As a said before, I don't know all the answers, and I don't pretend to like you do!
Being gay is not a sin! They were born that way as you were born straight! If they had a choice they would probably chose not having to be discriminated by religious extremists like you!

Views: 5

Tags: Argument, Christian, Douchebag, Extremist, Fanatic, Hypocrate

Comment by Matthew on December 14, 2009 at 7:19pm
good read and i love the arguement from ignorance that people use as well as a few of the other ones.
Comment by Craig Nomazlab on December 14, 2009 at 8:36pm
Thanks, Matthew!

Dave Harrisson: Yes, He created satan, but not as an evil being. He created him as Lucifer. Lucifer was the angel of music and led worship of God. He was very beautiful which became part of his downfall. He thought of himself to highly and said to himself that he would ascend to Gods throne. In other words, he would overthrow God. One third of the angels in heaven followed him. Thus creating satan and his demons.

That is a good question about His voice. God has given us a free will. He will not override it in any way. Therefore He speaks softly. But, if you listen, you will hear Him.
As I said in my previous post. I do believe in evolution to a point. What I don't understand is that evolutionists say God can't be real because we don't know His origin. Yet, they have failed to explain the bottom line origin of everything we see. In effect, making man the highest form of life. In basic definition... god. That is where I see humans worshiping the creation instead of the creator. Romans 1 comes into play at that point. We all have urges especially sexual ones. But we don't have to act on them. Clearly in Romans it says that this is a curse because, as a people, we have denied God. That is what that is about. Trust me, if I could avoid the discomfort of talking about this, I would. I am a people lover. I love meeting new people and getting to know them. It doesn't matter to me what their background is. I feel compelled to tell the truth because I want them to know the Lord. I want to see them in heaven no matter what they have done in the past. I don't like the idea of any person suffering in the place known as Hell. That is why I tolerate the abuse of people who hate Christians. I am a hiring manager at work. I hire people based on qualification. I don't care what their sexual preferences are. And here is something I have never told people before. I had that temptation at one time. I struggled with the idea that I might be gay. Then I turned to the Lord. I was open and honest with Him about it. I prayed and asked for deliverance. That was prior to me becoming a Christian. In the end, He revealed himself to me, and He delivered me from those urges. So I do know what I am talking about. I have been there. Yes, I am straight by choice. I chose not to act on those urges (and I had plenty of oportunities) and turned to God. That is what I am saying these people, who God loves, need to do.

Me: "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

I'm sure if you listened you'd also be able to hear Allah, the Triple Goddess, Horned God, Santa Clause and the Tooth Fairy. That voice is probably completely psychological.
I never said for I know for an absolute fact that there are no dieties. I also don't know for a fact that there aren't any little elves living underground, there's just not enough reason to say he does exist any more than elves. Humans naturally create unproven explanations for what they don't know. For example; before people discovered how frost is created they used to think that a little goblin named Jack Frost would go around and spread it all over.
I don't worship humanity. As far as I know, humanity is the highest form of life, however we still have our flaws. No one and nothing is perfect.
I don't hate the Christians, I just hate their belief. My family is Christian and a lot of my friends are Christian. We sometimes get into arguments over it, but we still respect eachother.
No one is 100% straight or 100% gay. Usually we're more of one over the other. However there are the occassional gay/straight thoughts that may have us question our sexuality.
And why would god make it easier to find him for some people and harder for others?
Comment by Matthew on December 14, 2009 at 10:04pm
i love it when people bring up satan. it is one of the stongest reasons why the god idea=fail.

He created Lucifer (some say the angel of music) and after the fall became Satan (Does he still have control over music? If so why didnt God the Father take that away from him?) Man was created and put Adam and Eve and put them into the garden where the Serpent (some say Lucifer/Satan) tempeted Eve to eat the fruit and she had no idea she was sinning. But, God put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the garden and if God the Father was Omnicent, he KNEW that Eve would eat the fruit. So, God fails in not keeping a 3rd of his angels in line and then LETS humanity fall?! He keeps Satan around so he can come back and kill most of the humans that he made in his own image? FAIL!!!
Comment by Craig Nomazlab on December 14, 2009 at 11:05pm
Dave Harrisson: He is willing, but you forgot something in the your wealth of knowledge of the Bible... He gave the earth to us. We were the rulers of the earth, until we gave it to satan when we bought his lie. God has to take it back by force. That is for the age to come. Which I believe is coming very soon based on what I know of prophecy and what I see today. So He is able as well, but has given us the time to seek Him. When He returns in victory, people will not have the chance to turn to Him any longer. It is by His mercy that He delays His return.

I am now convinced that you want to be deceived. You have already made your choice. I will continue to pray for you.

Hearing God has nothing to do with the psyche. You have a god, whether you believe it or not. Whether you have directly chosen or not. I know you never said there are definitely no dieties. But you always find room to accuse Him of something, which in itself is sin. I hope that one day you will turn from your sin and chose to know the Living God, instead of the one He created and fell like lightning from the sky. Make no mistake Craig, you are either for Him or against Him. There is NOTHING in between.

It is funny how your story changed from being born one way or the other to being both. I think that is because you need to take the power of my experience away. Which, BTW, will never happen. I know different. And if then we are as you say "both", then it is still a choice on which way you will go.

You say easier to find for some as apposed to others. It took years for me. It all comes down to your heart. If you truly want to know God... it will happen. But if you have chosen to cut God off, then your lack of faith has already kept you from ever hearing the truth and knowing Him. Until, that is, you decide to repent.

Craig, I am glad that you have respect for your Christian family and friends, that is an important piece of the puzzle. But you should at least show some respect for God in the event that He does exist. Why tempt Him to wrath if you are not sure He doesn't exist? I know He does. He has touched my life in so many ways. I have seen deaf people instantly start to hear when prayed for. Eye problems that instantly went away. Deliverance from sinful desires and behaviors. I have even witnessed weather change due to prayer. I still contend that you don't know what you are talking about. You have believed a lie. This is a lie that is a matter of eternal life and where you will spend it. Eternal is forever Craig... NEVER ENDING. And it relies directly on a decision that only you can make. Follow Him or not, it's your choice.

Me: atan rules the earth? Since when was that? The apocalypse was supossed to have happened several times already. It does not require mercy to delay the ruthless slaughter of everyone alive, it just requires not being cruel.

I'm quite sure it's *YOU* who wants to be decieved because you like the idea of there being a god.

"You have a god, wether you believe it or not. Wether you have directly chosen or not." - Please clarify or prove.

My family is Christian. You want to know my life story? I was born from Christian parents. I went along with there belief somewhat unsure, trying to find truth and trying to understand. When I was about eleven I started questioning some more and stopped considering myself a Christian, unsure whether or not I believed in God. In grade eight, studied world regions in school. I discovered Buddhism, the only religion that made much sense to me. I almost became one but decided not to when I learned about all the rules that didn't make much sense, for example, not being allowed to play an instrument, sing, or dance. I researched religion some more and eventually decided none of them made any sense and finally decided that I'm an Atheist. There, that's my story. Happy?

If god does exist, he's probably not the cruel basterd he is in the bible. The bible was not written by god. I have heard of people who begged for food and died horrible painful deaths. I knew people who begged god to cure their friends' and relatives' diseases who all have died. Yes, I understand the definition of eternal. I'm sure god is not evil enough to condemn me to eternal suffering. "And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence." And besides, have you not heard of Limbo? Look it up.
Comment by Clemente on December 15, 2009 at 2:21am
You should make it clear to him that evolution does not explain the origin of life, that's abiogenesis. Evolution explains the diversity in life.
Comment by Dave G on December 15, 2009 at 11:18am
Plenty of fallacies and errors in his posts, I see. Starting off with a huge 'No True Scotsman' argument, and racing into cascades of arguments from ignorance, arguments from consequence, not to mention arguments from authority.

Not only does he have the typical fundamentalist understanding of science (all science is evolution and all evolutionists are God-hating atheists), he doesn't even have a solid understanding of the parts of the Bible being referenced. For example, he blames Satan for the plagues on Egypt, because if the pharaoh had let the slaves go, God wouldn't have sent the plagues. But... in Exodus 10:27, the pharaoh was ready to let them go, but God hardened the Pharaoh's heart, and then killed all of the firstborn. So, according to the Bible, it was God's doing. So much for free will.
Comment by Craig Nomazlab on December 15, 2009 at 8:04pm
This guy takes the bible way too seriously! All the Christian's I know consider it mostly metaphorical, but this guy takes it word for word.

Dave Harrisson: First of all, the time for redemption is now.

Second, it's not saying "screw the church" that is unforgivable. What Jesus said is unforgivable is saying that the spirit of God is evil or does evil. Read what I write in context. Why is it that everything is so extreme with you? It seems that all you want to be is contrary. Nothing is good enough of an answer for you unless everybody agrees with you. That is not how it works. We do not get to define God, He defines us.
The whole point of the cross being a symbol of Christianity is... wait for it...
Because HE WAS HUNG ON THE CROSS! lol... now that makes me laugh. You are so focused on belittling my faith, that you are willing to try anything to do it. Do you realize that nothing you have tried has worked?

Lastly, you are either for God or against God. Sure, you are not a "satanist", but you have believed his lie. You are following him whether you realize it or not. BTW, I am not homophobic, sexist or violent. Therefore your whole perception is wrong. Right down to the part that God was made up. King Arthur may have existed, but nobody says that they experience his presence today. But, we as Christians do know His presence in a very real and tangible way. Just like I am sure you know the love of your parents, even when they are disciplining you, you can "feel" that they love you. It is tangible to you, even if you can't touch it. And, just because people say evil things about God, does not prove that He was made up either. That just shows the pride, arrogance and stupidity of man.

Me: I'm not saying god is evil. I'm saying he doesn't exist because his actions contradict his "love" and "mercy."
"Nothing is good enough of an answer for you unless everybody agrees with you."
I need a good reason before I believe something. Threats of damnation isn't good enough, because I need a good reason to believe in hell.
So the reason behind a killing tool being your symbol is because it's what you killed your saviour on? YOU are so focused on trying to convert me! Why do you care? Nothing you've tried has worked either!
I'm quite sure that I'd be aware of it if I were worshipping a demon. You're not homophobic, yet you say homosexuality is a sin, punished with damnation? Not only that but you think people CHOSE to be gay? And you know why god is male? Because the bible was written back when women were considered in-superior. People who say they feel the presence of Jesus, are lying, insane, or just plain stupid. BTW, in case you thought it did, seeing what appears to be Jesus' face burnt on your toast does not count.
There is a very small possibility that god exists, but it's not even close to being enough to devote my life to his worship. As I said, I can't prove god doesn't exist but can't prove elves don't either.
Comment by Craig Nomazlab on December 15, 2009 at 10:44pm
Dave Harrisson: Okay, lets change this up a bit. You believe in the theory of evolution as the origin of man, right? Now, it is a scientific theory. A scientific theory, be definition, can't be proven, makes assertions, is considered neither right or wrong. Now, that being said, you have faith that that is what happened. You are willing to put your faith in the wisdom of man. So let's see if I have this right. You think the Bible is fiction because it was written by man. Yet, you believe the theory of evolution which was... uh... written by man. Therefore, it takes "faith" to believe in evolution. And is totally hypocritical given the statements you wrote about the Bible. The fact is, the Bible, though penned (or chiseled) by man was God inspired. In other words, God spoke to the individuals that wrote His words. Thus, it is referred to as the word of God. How else would He speak to us as a whole? He has to speak through somebody.

Me: Evolution explains the DIVERSITY in life.
http://www.allaboutcreation.org/evidence-for-evolution.htm
I believe evolution because:
A- It makes more sense than god snapping his fingers and us appearing out of nowhere.
B- It has more evidence than some book that was said to be written by god.
C- I'm still willing to accept any *SCIENTIFIC* explanations that prove it wrong.

Yes, there were both written by man. The theory of evolution was written by a man who knew what he was doing and had evidence. And WHY should I believe that god spoke to this guy? Why should I believe it was the word of god? Why shouldn't I consider that guy insane or a liar?
P.S. Lyle Wind wants me to tell you that he says you're fucked in the head
Comment by Craig Nomazlab on December 15, 2009 at 10:54pm
Sorry, forgot one point.
D- Evolution doesn't require devoting you life to worship.
Comment by Craig Nomazlab on December 16, 2009 at 10:38am
I have no idea what he was doing here. He replied with a comment saying "already answered" and then replied to himself like 10 or so times still saying "already answered." I replied saying "please specify."

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