I found this comment on a Facebook poll titled: "Do atheists actually believe they can convince people to convert to their beliefs via facebook polls?"
Feel free to suggest what I should have said or if he had a point I should've listened to.


Dave Harrisson: It seems to me that some atheists use these polls to belittle Christians. They think they have all the answers and that because some men say that God doesn't exist, that we should all just say... Okay, forget about God. But what they don't realize is that we actually know God in a very personal way. We KNOW He exists.

Me: That was one of the most hypocritical things I have ever read. I'm constantly threatened with damnation by Christians who think they have all the answers because they have the bible. I don't think I have all the answers. I just don't think their all in the bible. And I tried praying. I prayed for a sign, for some proof many many times and I never found one. And as Tim Best just said: "Christians have their propaganda on our money, our monuments, and in our Pledge; atheists get death threats for buying private billboards."

Dave Harrisson: As I said "some atheists". I was only addressing the ones that are constantly saying things like... the flying spaghetti monster" or calling God a "rapist". I was not addressing "all" atheists. I am sorry that you seemed to have read "all atheists". By the way, I have never threatened an atheist and never will. As a Christian, I am to love my neighbor as myself. I know that some Christians are caught up in their religiosity. In my view, religion has nothing to do with true Christianity.
As far as praying for a sign. That one probably won't be answered in that way. But what I would advise is to pray in this way. "God, if you are real, please reveal yourself to me. If you are there, I want to know you". In doing this with a sincere desire to know Him, He will answer you. I guarantee it. "seek and you shall find, knock and the door will be opened".
As far as having all the answers... I can tell you that I don't. I know my Lord in a very real and personal way. I know His voice, His love, and His presence. Again, I am sorry if I offended you. That was not my intention, please forgive me.

Me: "The flying spaghetti monster" is a metaphor saying that a white, homophobic, male who created everything we know isn't much more believable than it. And I have never heard anyone ever call god a rapist.
I already tried praying for him to reveal himself. I tried rephrasing it in many different ways for a couple years until I finally gave up and came to the conclusion that he doesn't exist. And even if he did exist I sincerely doubt that if he's as loving as you say that he'd condemn me to eternal torture for not believing in him. Why would he make me who I am just to send me for hell for being who he made me? Frankly, there is nothing you can say that'll make me a Christian again.

Dave Harrisson: That of course is up to you Craig. I am not on here to convince you. Just like you, I am here to express my opinion and belief's. I am not sure why God has chosen not to reveal Himself to you. I can not answer for Him. But I do know that He sent His Son to die for us. We have to respond to His love by accepting His Son as Lord and Savior. You have to understand that the forgiveness comes in knowing Him. That is why those that chose to reject Him end up in Hell. In a way, we send ourselves to Hell by refusing to accept Him. God the Father has done everything He could for us. Now it is up to us. I will pray for you Craig, I hope that you can find it in yourself to ask again. It is that important.

Me:Well if your "merciful" god doesn't reveal himself to me and then sends *me* to hell for it than he pretty cruel (as if I didn't already know that after reading Noah's Ark.) Why would god create faulty people and punish them for his mistakes?
You say you'll pray for me, and I will think for you.

Dave Harrisson: In respect to God creating "faulty people". What God desires from His creation is a relationship and worship from us. Now, He could have made a bunch of robots that just follow Him around. But, to get perfect worship and to have a real relationship, He had to give us a "free will". That means that we have to make choices. We can choose to have a relationship, or we can choose to rebel against Him. So again, you are looking at the wrong source. It is NOT HIM that chooses where you will go, it IS YOU that chooses. How about taking a little time to seek for Him. Try praying like I said before. Have an open mind as to HOW He will answer you. If you really want to know Him, step out towards Him. He already sent His Son, respond to that in "faith" that He will answer you. I guarantee that He will.

Me: So God's not sending me to hell for being who he made me, he's sending me to hell for being born in the wrong place and the wrong time.
I've taken the first 11 years of my life to seek him, in every way possible. I'm not going to spend my whole life desperatly seeking a big, bearded, white, merciful, cruel, male with magic powers, I want to ENJOY my life FREELY without having to worry about hell. And why should I believe in your god anymore than all the others?

Dave Harrisson: Craig, all you want to do is bash God. It is completely up to you in what you decide to do. Just don't be surprised at what happens in the end. Eleven years isn't all that much time either. You don't look very old in your picture, so I am curious just how much time you actually spent seeking the Lord. I didn't get an answer until I was 21. I searched for quite a while before He revealed Himself in a way that I knew it was Him. But in looking back, He was speaking to me all along. I was just expecting a different answer in a different way.o He may actually be trying to get your attention and you are just not hearing Him because you want a "sign or proof". Those are your words, not mine. It takes faith to please God.

Me: Eleven years is enough to convince me he doesn't exist, and I'm 15, thank you very much. As I said, I do not need to waste my entire life searching for a your god because some ancient, mistranslated, misinterpreted book says so.

"Don't be surprised at what happens in the end."

Was that a threat? I consider myself a fairly good person (not trying to be arrogant) and am quite sure that if there was a god he would judge me on how good a person I was and not damn me for being born in the wrong place and the wrong time. That would be quite cruel of him, which I guess wouldn't be too big of a surprise considering he completely slaughtered every living thing except for two of his favourites from every species. And not only that, but he condemned them all to eternal torture. And you worship this guy? You can no longer complain about Hitler.

Dave Harrisson: Dude, how could that be a threat. I have no power to do anything to you. The fact is... "He who has the Son (Jesus Christ) has the Father also. He who has not the Son, is condemned already". "There is none good, not one except Jesus Christ". God doesn't judge you as to whether YOU think you were good. You will be judged by His standard of Holiness. So, unless you are perfect, you can not enter the kingdom of God unless you are in fellowship with Jesus Christ. You may be good by human standards, but not by Gods. That is where you guys don't get it. You apply mans wisdom to what you think God should do. He is NOT A MAN.
I will pray for you Craig. You have some really strange views about God. I suspect that you have had a lot of hurt in your life. But I can no longer discuss this with you while you bash and curse my Lord and my God. He is just, righteous, Holy, merciful, good, etc...
His Son Jesus Christ is...
The prince of peace
Emmanuel
Mighty God
Lamb of God
Holy redeemer
Son of God
etc...

Me: So I could be an absolute hero but still be damned because I was born into the wrong culture? Cruel indeed. God killed 2,391,421 (not including Noah's Ark, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc.). Satan killed a grand total of 10. So much for thou shall not kill. And you consider that "just, righteous, holy, merciful and good?" And on top of that there's the millions that humans killed in the name of god such as the crusades, witch hunts, etc. And you're telling me that I have strange views of god. You sir, are a hypocritical, extremist fanatic. You have failed to convince me anything other than confirming the points I have made.

He hasn't replied since that.

Views: 4

Tags: Argument, Chrisitan

Comment by Apple on December 13, 2009 at 1:49am
Hi Craig. This was an interesting read.
One thing to keep in mind when talking to Christians is that they like to have a "personal god." In other words, they tend to be self centered and only consider what the "god" can do for them. They call this a "relationship." On the surface you two seem to be having a religious debate about christianity, but it is actually a debate between two different ideologies.

Dave wants to know whats in it for him. In his mind, christianity gives him eternal paradise after death, along with guardian angels and some possible answered prayers while he's alive on earth.

You, on the other hand, are more interested in what is true than what is comforting. The ironic thing is that when one breaks it down, like you tried to, christianity is not even very comforting. Just for being born into the wrong culture or in the wrong time period you will be made to suffer eternal torture. In human terms, that would be like saying that I am a mass murderer, but I also have lots of money that I share with my closest friends. If you want to be my friend, I will help you. If not, I will kill you. It's not me doing this to you, it's your free choice.

Understanding how these people think is important. The best way to deal with them is to just ask simple questions without trying to make them upset. What you need to do is try to take their focus off of themselves and bring it into a more global perspective. They don't like to think about these things, but nobody will admit to not being a critical thinker. Perhaps starting the conversation by asking if they consider themselves to be a critical thinker could be a good start.
Comment by Michel-san on December 13, 2009 at 11:21am
"If you want to be my friend, I will help you. If not, I will kill you. It's not me doing this to you, it's your free choice."
Let's add to the realism! If you're Apple's friend, I'll kill you. But if you don't like Apple and like me, I'll be nice to you. I'm sure Apple will kill you if you're my friend though, so be careful!

Are you really fifteen? Those are impressive writing and arguing skills for a fifteen year old! It's a pity Dave didn't answer any of your questions.

Why does heaven/hell always come down to a lottery? We're "supposed" to pick a religion and hope it's the right one, but if it's a wrong one we go to hell...
Comment by Craig Nomazlab on December 13, 2009 at 12:25pm
Thanks, Apple. I'll try to remember that next time. And yes, Michael I am fifteen but I turn sixteen on December 25, what Christians like to call: Christmas.
Comment by Shawna on December 13, 2009 at 5:41pm
Yeah, but "God" -is- a rapist -- he certainly didn't ask for Mary's consent....
Comment by Craig Nomazlab on December 13, 2009 at 9:05pm
Hey guys, I got a reply.

Dave Harrison: Satan has killed billions. Do Hitler, Mao, Stalin, and Osama Bin Laden (just to name a few) ring a bell. That also includes those that killed in the name of Jesus. They bought the lie and had nothing to do with "true Christianity". And then EVERYBODY who he lied to about who is responsible for the very evil you accuse God of, that died without knowing their Lord. Satan has come to steal, kill, and destroy. You have bought the lie that God is responsible for the evil in this world. It is satan that is responsible, and the people who follow his lead. You have no idea what you are talking about. And BTW, it's not for me to convince you of anything. That is the Holy Spirit that does that. BTW, God has answered your prayer after all. He sent you a messenger, and all you did in response is curse God and accuse Him of evil. You are on very dangerous ground... Repent and turn to the Lord before it is to late. He is here to save you from darkness and sin. "in the last days, men will call darkness light and light darkness. they will mistake evil for good and good for evil". That is what you are doing Craig. When Jesus Christ was on earth, He harmed nobody. He healed everybody that came to Him. He delivered those that were oppressed and possessed. He brought salvation to a dieing world. Your accusations will not change those facts. You will not succeed in defaming the Lord. Again, you must repent and stop repeating the lies of satan. As it stands, he has you. When you die, you will be dead indeed if you do not repent. Hell is a very real place, and those that refuse to know Him will go there. Where and when you are born has NOTHING to do with it. YOU choose what you believe. Your circumstances have NOTHING to do with it. How "good" you think you are has nothing to do with it. It has everything to do with a "relationship" with the living God. Thus far, you have chosen not to have the relationship with Him that you were created to have. Therefore you condemn yourself. You have knowledge of God. You have heard the word of salvation. Jesus Christ IS that word. If you chose to continue in denial of the truth and follow satan's lies, then you have made your choice. You will have the reward that is due to you.
I know I am speaking very strongly. It is because I care about you, more than you know. That is because Jesus cares for you more than you know. He wants a relationship with you. All you have to do is respond to His invitation Craig. He IS the answer to whatever has hurt you enough to hate God. You have placed that hate in the wrong place. Jesus Christ loves you, or He would not have sent me to discuss this with you. REPENT and be Baptized, and you will be saved. I am praying for you.
Comment by Craig Nomazlab on December 13, 2009 at 9:16pm
What should I say in my reply?
Comment by Galen on December 13, 2009 at 10:46pm
At this point, I'd just tell him to go fuck himself, but I guess you'd like to take "the high road" and be a little more mature than that, lol. So... yeah I guess I don't have a rational and mature response for him. Sorry :)
Comment by Craig Nomazlab on December 13, 2009 at 10:46pm
lol, I'm working on one now. Feel to post any awesome respones and I'll send them to him.
Comment by Craig Nomazlab on December 13, 2009 at 11:19pm
Me: "Do Hitler, Mao, Stalin, and Osama Bin Laden Ring a bell." (Questions usually have question marks at the end)

Yes, and I believe that Hitler was a Catholic.

"You have bought the lie that God is responsible for the evil in this world."

Where in the bible does it say that Satan caused the flood in Noah's Ark? Where does it say that Satan caused the plagues in Egypt?

"BTW, God has answered your prayer after all. He sent you a messenger, and all you did in response is curse God and accuse Him of evil."

You're claiming to be a messager of god? What an arrogant thing to say. I'm quite sure god would not send some random idiot on the internet who I've never met before to be his prophet.

"When you die, you will be dead indeed if you do not repent. Hell is a very real place, and those that refuse to know Him will go there."

Now that defianatly was a threat and I'm not scared. I refuse to believe in a god who is the primary cause of conflict in the world, preaches racism, sexism, homophobia, and ignorance, and then sends me to hell if I’m ‘bad’. And then he offers no chance for redemption? If hell is as bad as it's reputed for than I'm quite sure a short period of time there could change a person for the better.

"Where and when you are born has NOTHING to do with it. YOU choose what you believe."

Yes it does! If my parents happened to be Buddhist than I would have been raised and taught to be a Buddhist! Not a Christian! Having been raised in that environment, I would've been a completely different person than one raised in a Christian environment! I chose what to believe giving the logical, and practical choices that are presented to me!

"How "good" you think you are has nothing to do with it. It has everything to do with a "relationship" with the living God. "

So as long as you love god you go to heaven? Do you have any idea how many murderers, rapists, pedophiles and theaves would be walking around heaven? You sir, are very confused. Given your personality you're probably anti-gay as well and belive that they're all damned for being born that way.
If he exists and loves me that he can show it without using confused idiots on the internet like you. You can keep putting your hands together and thinking to yourself as much as you like but it's not going to change anything.
Comment by Craig Nomazlab on December 14, 2009 at 12:20am
David Harrison: Because I am a messenger doesn't mean I'm a prophet. I simply explained to you the love of God. That is what a messenger does, brings a message.
Just because you were born Buddhist or anything else for that matter, doesn't mean you can't find the truth. Especially when you have heard it, and you have.
Just because you claim to be Catholic, doesn't mean you are a Christian. BTW, I have repeatedly explained that to you. Start listening to everything that is said, instead of picking and choosing.
I still have not threatened you. I spoke the truth, plain and simple. Apparently... "you can't handle the truth"... lol
Yes, through sin, satan did cause the flood, and the plagues on Egypt. And BTW, the plagues would not have been sent if Pharaoh would have let his... uh... SLAVES go, which just happened to be the chosen people of God in the dispensation of the law. I guess you are for slavery? Wow... look at that. No typo this time... lol
It is a good thing that God forgives ANY sinner that comes to Him. Yes, rapists, murderers, even Hitler if he would have repented. You are welcome as well!
I would rather be considered an idiot for the Lord, than a worldly wise man without Him. And yes, I will pray for you.
As far as any sinner, I am not against any, including Gay people. I have Gay colleagues who are very good at what they do. They are no different than me. I love the sinner, but I hate the sin. Sin is sin, no matter what it is. God is there for everybody, including Gays, if they repent of their sins.

And finally, I will not stoop to insulting you as you have repeatedly tried to do to me. You see, there is more to life than hating somebody for anything that they may have said or done. I forgive you for your insults. I love you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

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