Comment by Kevin Strong on December 7, 2011 at 8:25pm

To expound briefly on that point, before my wife's head actually explodes..

There is a recognized difference between lying and fiction, which is essentially lying for entertainment, I would consider stories of Santa, the Easter Bunny etc... to fall into that latter category. Are we supposed to avoid telling our kids stories, should we refrain from reading bed time stories because we give the impression of endorsement?

Comment by Ed on December 7, 2011 at 8:41pm

Give your kids an empty refrigerator shipping box. It will become a castle, a sled on a hill, a ship, a submarine, whatever. The point being their imagination will not be suppressed by an unimaginative parent who doesn't enjoy sharing a good fairy tale. Kids are smarter than we give them credit for. The first time my mom told me to put my tooth under the pillow for you know who I thought to myself "Does she really expect me to believe that?"  :^ )

Comment by Kevin Strong on December 7, 2011 at 9:10pm

@Kir I don't think you do understand my point. I refer you to my previous statement about the difference between a lie and fiction. One is for the purpose of entertainment. That is what these stories are all about, entertainment, they're about a good time, and they're as much for the parents as they are for the kids. Are you telling me you don't read fiction, don't watch fictional television or movies? Do you not have respect for the people who compose that fiction because they aren't telling the truth?

What am I doing to myself? I don't have kids, if I did I imagine I'd be enjoying their sense of wonder and adventure and fostering their imagination. As it stands I like fiction, I read a great deal of it and I occasionally write some (bad) fiction.

@Ed I never said that an unimaginative parent would stifle their kids imaginations, though I doubt they help, and kids are often smarter than we give them credit for, which is why I don't think it's harmful to engage in this kind of storytelling. The argument here is whether parents should engage in that fairytale, and my position is that if they have the desire and the capacity there isn't any harm in it.

Comment by Kevin Strong on December 7, 2011 at 9:43pm

I'm not prevaricating, there IS an established and recognized difference between fiction and lying. Explain how that premise is presumptuous or arrogant, please. On the other hand, your argument is a blatant, and frankly, odd oversimplification. You are attempting to remove from context, and context is everything.

I explained what this did to me, both from a personal perspective and through the eyes of my hypothetical kids. It allows me to revisit with great nostalgia elements of my childhood and engage my own imagination, and as the "instrument of deception" I'm also the source of entertainment or pleasure to be derived from the fiction. In my own experience this wasn't detrimental to the way I felt about my parents, I remember them fondly for their participation in those traditions.

I recognize the difference in the above scenarios, but I reject the assertion that the origin of the deception makes it somehow more or less detrimental to the child's upbringing.

Most fiction is, unfortunately, drivel, but there is a great deal of it which is not. I'm sorry that you lost your taste for it in your early teen years, as you could not have possibly developed the sophistication or contextual background to understand and relate to the majority of the good stuff.

Comment by Kevin Strong on December 7, 2011 at 10:02pm

It is not prevarication, I'm not avoiding or obstructing the issue. You claim that engaging in this type of fiction is lying, and my argument is that there is a difference between lying and fiction.

You argue that fiction is lying because it is not the truth, and that is an oversimplification. Fiction is often used to teach or lead to the truth, it's existence is not meant to be malicious, it is meant to entertain and teach.

It isn't a straw man argument, the crux of this argument is whether or not telling your kids that Santa is coming is somehow detrimental to their upbringing. This sprang from an earlier post where someone claimed that it permanently altered them and made them susceptible to religious belief.

That wasn't an ad hominen attack. You literally could not possibly have developed the sophistication or contextual background to fully appreciate complex literature, or "good fiction" at 13 years of age. You couldn't have accumulated enough of an appreciation for the relevant issues, unless you are an actual prodigy. Am I wrong, did you have that breadth and depth of knowledge at the tender age of 13?

How was that previous post not pertinent? I believe I addressed you point by point, I think I was clear and fairly concise.

Comment by Kevin Strong on December 7, 2011 at 10:26pm

Hey Kir,

The assumption that you did not have a breadth and depth of knowledge requisite for the appreciation of a great deal of the fiction that treats any issues outside of its own telling is reasonable based on my experience with children, particularly pre-teens and young teenagers.

but, when u inculcate a child into a lie, such as telling the stories of gods, santas, and other such things, u r denying the child his or her right to be free of imposed deception.

I addressed that point, I don't agree with it, I don't think there is a "right to be free of deception" it is not a legal right, it's not enumerated in any of the number of constitutions or bodies of jurus prudence I've been exposed to, and if there is such a right then that right has and is violated on a regular basis by government and news media, the former would assert that it is actually necessary. So no, I don't believe that right is legitimate, further I believe that parents actually have a responsibility to engage their children's imaginations. Or do you not read your kids bed time stories?

Just to be helpful, and I sincerely mean this, go back and read what I wrote slowly, because it appears to me that you have a problem with critical reading and maintenance of context.

Also retake whatever class taught you to identify fallacies, because from where I'm sitting you have a real problem with the straw man.

Comment by Unseen on December 7, 2011 at 10:34pm

@Kir   "my sense on this is that u either tell the truth or u don't. u either mean what u say or u don't. u back up ur words with action or u don't. i have zero patience for anything less than that *for me personally*"

I don't always tell the truth and I don't always mean what I say, and once again I think I speak for a lot of us. A slavish and robotic commitment to never ever telling less than the truth (and there are a lot of ways an untruth can be other than a lie) is totally and comically naive. I also am sure I speak for a lot of us when I say that sometimes I don't mean what I say. I can be ironic or metaphorical. I can tell someone everything will be alright when I suspect it won't, hoping that I'm right but suspecting I'm wrong.

You are being very ridiculously simplistic and unsophisticated.

Comment by Kevin Strong on December 7, 2011 at 11:04pm

so, getting back on topic, u do not believe that children have natural or legal rights? is that ur position?

Of course they have rights, but your assertion that those rights extend to protection from the imposition of falsehoods is patently ridiculous, it's a parents job to raise their children the best way they know how, those "falsehoods" are useful teaching tools and serve to inspire children. If a child has grown out of those things, or doesn't wish to be involved in them, then they can assert that, until then it's part of being a guide for the kid.

"Or do you not read your kids bed time stories?"

Again, ad hominen attacks will not make u correct. they r entertaining. sometimes they r funny. sometimes they are ... fictions. but usually they don't accomplish anything of substance. the real question to ask urself is, what did that question do 4 u?

Not an ad hominem, central to the issue. By participating in this activity you would be endorsing and perpetuating the same behavior you are attacking.

Where have I claimed a statement that was not made? You first claimed that my argument against the assertion that fiction was detrimental to a child was a straw man. That issue was brought up, our argument actually stemmed from the post it was brought up in, and I'm sure I cleared that up in an earlier post. Your second accusation was that half of a paragraph long post was a straw man. You are either oversensitive to the straw man, not clear on the elements of a straw man, or lack the ability to maintain context. If you really think that I'm tossing straw men out then you are going to have to identify them and enumerate them.

Comment by Kevin Strong on December 7, 2011 at 11:12pm

Kir,

On Unseens comment.. I want this to be very clear to you, since you seemed to ignore it and then get defensive about it.

I was not prevaricating, I wasn't dodging, I wasn't being evasive. There is an accepted and fundamental difference between telling a lie and fiction. Boiling fiction down to a falsehood, especially in the context of this argument is a blatant and convenient oversimplification, which is as much a logical crime as anything you have accused me of.

Comment by Kevin Strong on December 7, 2011 at 11:28pm

false. read my previous reply. my son *indicates* interest in fiction, i read. so, no, not the same thing as inculcating a belief in a god in my son

I didn't say anything about a god. Nothing. That is a straw man. Not once have I indicated that anything I would be telling a kid had anything to do with a god or gods. I consider Santa to be a secular figure. That is a separate argument, and we could have that out if you want to, but briefly consider that the link between Santa and Christ is tenuous at best, as the character is an amalgamation of a catholic saint that left money in shoes and a Dutch mythological figure that stemmed from Odin.

Back on topic, your argument has been that you would not engage in fiction, deception, or lying, that it is not the truth and you have no tolerance for falsity. Reading fiction to your child is an endorsement of that same practice which you so vehemently claimed to be against. "but, when u inculcate a child into a lie, such as telling the stories of gods, santas, and other such things, u r denying the child his or her right to be free of imposed deception." Your words.

I don't think I've ever been off topic except when addressing a point or question you have made. I think you just like trying to distract from the issue.

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