Comment by Kevin Strong on December 7, 2011 at 11:48pm

Back on topic, your argument has been that you would not engage in fiction, deception, or lying, that it is not the truth and you have no tolerance for falsity. Reading fiction to your child is an endorsement of that same practice which you so vehemently claimed to be against. "but, when u inculcate a child into a lie, such as telling the stories of gods, santas, and other such things, u r denying the child his or her right to be free of imposed deception." Your words.

How is that off topic? That is exactly what we are arguing about, and it's using your own words.

Comment by Trish E. Harmon on December 8, 2011 at 12:28am

I don't see anything wrong with telling kids about Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny, because, as we all know, we eventually learn they are not real and we don't dwell on it and think our parents did a horrible thing. I don't know of anyone who needed therapy after finding out Santa or the bunny didn't exist. It's just fun, that's all. It's not like teaching them about God, because that's something even adults DO believe in and then force their children to believe it, too. It extends way beyond the years when kids find out that Santa and the Easter bunny don't exist. It also comes with teaching kids prejudice toward other religions, races, sexual orientation, etc. Santa and the Easter bunny are not those kind of symbols. So, I say, don't be so serious, let your kids have some fun with it. They'll learn, as we all did, that these were just stories. I never believed in God and I still look back fondly on the times I believed in Santa...not sure if I believed in the Easter bunny...and it was fun. It's just that simple.

Comment by Kevin Strong on December 8, 2011 at 1:17am

"Reading fiction to your child is an endorsement of that same practice which you so vehemently claimed to be against"

Those are mine, yours were the ones inside the quotes.

yea, thanks, that is better. i believe i clarified that statement to not be stating what u r stating it to be. right? so, i have no *personal* tolerance [a standard i set for myself, not anyone else] for prevarication of fact, not of dishonesty itself. subtle difference there. let  me expound just to be absolutely clear:

This was in response to your zero tolerance policy on lying, I'm addressing this:

"but, when u inculcate a child into a lie, such as telling the stories of gods, santas, and other such things, u r denying the child his or her right to be free of imposed deception."

i don't recall saying that. if ur words, then, no, i simply do not agree with that statement. i do not believe i am endorsing the fiction i am reading to any degree comparable to what i am doing when i repeatedly tell a child that santa is real, that he is coming tonight, on and on.

Now we're talking about degrees. You do agree that reading the fiction is at least a tacit endorsement of that fiction though correct? That there isn't anything wrong with it, it's a fun story, it's entertaining, it isn't harmful to your child? That's all I've been saying, belief in Santa isn't something that is harmful. Our endorsement of that belief is temporary and offered with the best of intentions. Eventually the kids will realize we've been screwing with them for six or ten years and then they'll be happy they're "in on it". There isn't any indoctrination here, no one expects their kid to live their life based on the premise that Santa is coming.

You think kids have a right not to be deceived, I think they have a right to some deception.

Comment by Kevin Strong on December 8, 2011 at 1:56am

but my response to that would be that, while this is a valid objection, it too fails the test. the reason is that things like santa (and especially god - but i know ur not saying that) r, in reality, pushed far, far harder than any book like green eggs and ham or a harry potter movie. kids r inundated with all things santa. even consumerism comes into it.

They are, and consumerism is the biggest part of it, there is an expectation of toys on christmas, and I'm not saying that is right, but it does strengthen the argument that Santa has become more secular. I think if you add the intent of the deception to your test you will find that it gets a better grade. The intent when exposing a child to religious indoctrination is to create a framework of belief for life. The intent when exposing a child to Santa is to create a long term fiction that is to be abolished about the time the child develops the capacity for abstract reasoning, which as you indicated, was around puberty.

To be clear, I never said it was wrong not to participate in that deception. My argument has been that it isn't wrong to participate in it. The issue of morality and comfort is left to the individual. I would never argue that YOU should tell your kid that Santa is coming, I only argue that it isn't wrong that we're doing it. I don't want to be misconstrued, and it occurred to me that I could be read as advocating for Santa when my intent is to advocate for parental discretion.

if we *do* consider the god angle, then it is far worse even than santa. with god we r not just talking about immersion in the notion, but we r talking now of something far beyond what entertainment can do. religion has the capacity for mind control, fear, intimidation, all kinds of stuff. so, i agree this is a different argument *once* u reduce to this level of the discussion."

We're pretty much in full agreement about religion. I don't like it, I don't think kids should be indoctrinated into it. I think if they have questions that we should answer them and that when they're old enough they'll come to their own conclusions.

That being said, I have a hard time criticizing christian parents. The job of a parent is to do the best by their child that they know how to do. Christians believe that your either good with Christ or your damned, by their logic not indoctrinating their child is irresponsible. I know it's twisted, but keep that in mind, they aren't doing it to preserve the religion, they're doing it to save the kids immortal soul.

Comment by Trish E. Harmon on December 8, 2011 at 3:00am

It has nothing to do with children's rights. Geez, I think some people just don't know how to have a little fun, loosen up a little. I did not suffer any ill effects from believing in Santa Clause when I was little, nor did my kids (who are ALL non-religious) and they are amazing adults. It's not a big deal. Kids learn it's all just a story, and parents tell little "stories" all the time to get their kids to do what they want them to do. Sometimes I think people don't know how to have a little fun with life. Life is too short to be so serious all the time.

Comment by Liz LaPoint on December 8, 2011 at 10:38am

I have to say, I agree with most of everyone's points. I have thought about this before and am still on the fence. On one hand, I think it can be a fun part of childhood. But when I remember what that felt like to find out he isn't real and I'd been tricked all those years, it makes me wonder if it does some damage. I remember figuring it out on my own before anyone admitted Santa wasn't real (I realized it was my older brother's handwriting on the gifts from "Santa") and it may have made me lose a little trust in older people. Once you realize you've been lied to, even for "fun", you find yourself questioning everything you are told--but there's where I then think that maybe that's a good thing--it taught me to question authority and not be gullible!

Comment by Unseen on December 8, 2011 at 11:27am

@Liz   Well, look at it this way. Finding out that there is no Santa Claus, Easter bunny, or tooth fairy sets the child up for realizing there is no God, either. In that regard, we can consider it quite functional in an atheist parent's strategy.

Comment by Unseen on December 8, 2011 at 11:38am

@Kir   Parents have a lot of harmless fun with their kids, including playing hide and seek (which includes deception), the old "look I took off your nose" trick (thumb sticking out between the first and second finger), and various magic tricks.

I never realized how sinister this all was until you pointed it out. (yeah, right)

Comment by Steff on December 9, 2011 at 4:57am

Thank you all for your many responses, I am afraid I could not yet read them all.

I am a bit shocked to find Santa being put by some of you on the same level as an demons and exorcism. I think there is a significant difference, and also you don't have to use Santa to make your kid obey your orders, he can simply be a nice fat guy in a red dress that gives presents to kids and digs cookies ...

Kir, being a foreigner I find it very hard to read your texts with all these abbreviations. If you take your time to reply someone, why not spend an extra minute on proper writing. This would make it much easier for people like me to read it. As on the context, I get your point of view. I disagree though.

But then, I don't believe that not-to-lie always and under any circumstances is the right thing to do. At least not that if "not telling the full truth" qualifies as a lie itself. If I would never lie, I would neither have a job nor a partner. Small lies are neccessary to get along with people.

Thanks Kevin for clarifying the difference between lying and fiction.

I think a shared (good-natured) fiction between parent and child will not do any harm.I saw a documentation about Roald Dahl once, who woke up his kids at night to sneak out with them in PJs and watch the stars and the train and hunt for magic creatures. He played pretend with his kids and they loved it. I have the fondest childhood memories with my uncle, who got his telescope to watch the stars with me, and with whom I "saw" the moon rocket and the guys walking around the moon. His explainations were so detailed that my imagination was strong enough so I did see them. I can not see anything harmful in things like these - there is no mindfuck, no brainwashing, no instrumentalization.

Trish, well written, thank you for your thoughts.

Will continue to read the rest later.

Comment by Liz LaPoint on December 19, 2011 at 11:22am

You guys might find this interesting:

http://music.yahoo.com/blogs/stop-the-presses/justin-bieber-mom-nev...

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