Micro-Evolution and the Tower of Babel

Creationists like to admit that Micro-Evolution is real and deny that Macro-Evolution exists. They cite that we've never seen Speciation, we have no transitional fossils, and some will throw up a picture of crocodile crossed with a duck and look for that. If we never find that fossil they have won, at least in their minds. Without going into that, I want to take on the Bible and even Micro-Evolution. They set up the timeline with Genesis, and I'll be glad to play their game.
First off, the Tower of Babel was bothersome to God because it was set to reach the heavens. The reasoning God came up with is that the people were so smart working together because they spoke the same language. He didn't want man to reach the heavens so he scattered them about the earth and confused their languages (Genesis 11). Let's ignore that shortly thereafter God floods (Genesis 18) the earth killing those with different languages and move on to the continuation of the idea that the languages remained even though everyone was dead (Love Christian logic).
Let's take on the Tower of Babel. My background was as an Iron Worker, then as a Tower Crane operator. I'm currently likely the only guy in the nation licensed in two states as a tower crane inspector. I'm not an engineer, but I have a sound understanding of structures. The material available would have been stone. Let's suggest that Bronze was available, too soft. Copper, same result. The ductility of metals would not allow shear loaded shear connections to handle the loads. So Stone would be the material used. A period correct structure would be the The Great Puramid at Giza. At 455 feet, you have the tallest structure for centuries. Until the Bessemer Process in the late 1900's that developed low carbon steel, anything taller would have required a larger foot print at a 1:1 ratio. With the advent of steel (even in concrete structures for tensile strength) we have gotten to the Burj Dubai. at 2600 feet tall, do you suppose the Tower of Babel was taller than this? Have we made it to heaven? What floor do I get off on to see God?

You accept Micro-Evolution you say? So you don't mind that Chinese history shows gaps in the age of the Earth according to the Bible. The flood would have wiped them out? OK, moving on... we are talking about evolution having happened over a period of less than 6000 years developing Negroid, into Caucasoid (never mind Neanderthal) and Mongoloid. This is not speciation, this is only the "Micro-evolution". So the claim is that in 6000 years we have went from all being Black or Arabic to being white to deal with the lack of sun, stayed Arabic and Black, and changed to Mongoloid with coarse hair, thin eyelets and shovel incisors. Within the theory of Evolution, this change is too fast. If this were possible, then the argument against the Cambrian Explosion is debunked by their own evidence. By comparison, they would reject the example of Salamanders in California separated by 10 million years leading to speciation but over 6000 years they recognize the "micro-evolution".

The next time a creationist decides to discuss this, tell them that you'll give them the flood after the Tower of Bable and assume that there is a good explanation. Ask them if Micro-Evolution is true and the Cambrian Explosion destroys Marcto Evolution due to speed, how do they explain the differeneces in humand in 6000 years or less? I've heard the Canaanite explanation, now explain Asians and Whites.

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Comment by Andrew Schatz on May 5, 2009 at 3:42am
When you say "creationists" are you referencing the two who were on tv with the RRS?
I haven't heard such claims from anyone becides those two.
Comment by Gaytor on May 5, 2009 at 4:51am
Don't you love how they accept science when it works for them and reject it otherwise? It's rather convenient. They still have language and construction to go. Thanks Nelson.
Comment by James on May 5, 2009 at 9:24am
Some nice points made here.

Since we're on the topic of the Tower of Babel, I've always had a few issues with that story as well (other than the BS language explanation). Why would an all knowing god have to worry that the tower would make it to heaven? He knows everything, right? Surely he would know it would fail, that they didn't have to make a tower that tall, and that above all the clouds isn't heaven, but the upper atmosphere and the edge of space. That these builders, had they somehow reached that high, would have died due to the 'thinner air' as they got further and further up. Wouldn't an all-knowing god know that his people (that he created) can't breath in outer space. And if heaven isn't on top of the clouds (as we now know), which was the alluded goal, then where is it?
Comment by Pam on May 5, 2009 at 9:48am
I don't think god was worried the people would physically reach heaven. He was probably more concerned about them dying from the causes James mentioned, and then coming to heaven and being way smarter. =P
Comment by Shelby on May 23, 2009 at 2:19pm
Perhaps maybe next time you post your research will be a bit better. In the Bible the flood of the world(Ch 6.) occurs before the Tower of Babel (Ch 11). Chapter 18 has to deal with Abraham's visitors. And if God has the power to scatter the people(as in move them) could we not assume he also has the capacity to change the color of skin.
Comment by Frink on May 23, 2009 at 2:46pm
Johnathan Smith -- You're begging the question. If you're going to start asserting the powers of god, you should probably start by proving his existence. By your logic, I could reason the attributes of a being--let's call him Bill the Deity--and assert he has the power to read your thoughts, predict the future and manifest himself in the form of burnt splotches of bread on your morning toast. I could also plead that he has other powers derived from these three. Do you think my argument would be valid?
Comment by Gaytor on May 25, 2009 at 11:39pm
Jonathan, you are correct, I have made an error. This Argument here is destroyed due to a simple error and I don't even know how I made it.

You are still left with questions to ask yourself. Why does the Catholic Church support Evolution in it's entirety? What does that mean for your claim that god could change the color of skin? If Evolution is true then environmental pressures would have caused these changes and not god. Remember, we aren't talking about speciation here, just "micro-evolution" (misnomer).
You aren't Catholic you say, alright, Lee Strobel is a prominent Evangelical writer whom promotes god as the creator and science as correct but god guided. This is the claim of the Intelligent Design crowd in essence. The idea creates more problems than it answers. For one, are we talking about the Christian god? We are talking about claimed Christians making claims about god so I must assume that we are talking about a Christian god. If Evolution is true then the story of Adam and Eve isn't true. If Evolution is true than the lineage from Adam through Jesus is irrelevant, as is much of the bible and the Old Testament Prophecies. If the Big Bang is true than the six day creation story isn't true. More over, a literal reading of the Bible does not support Old Earth. If the Bible isn't literal, then which of it's claims are true and why follow it? If you believe in Young Earth maybe you'd like to explain the Ice Age or even 13,500 year old history of humans and even Clovis points in North America when it's another 7500 years until Adam is created Africa or the Middle East depending on whom you believe?
You caught me on a mistake Johnathan and I admit that I'm wrong. Maybe you could look into the reasoning Christian leaders of the most popular Christian faiths either support science in whole or part. What you threw out there in terms of god creating skin colors would get you laughed out of any college science class and more and more churches. Why?
Welcome to T/A, Nice catch on me, keep on reading.


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