Do we fear determinism for the same reason we fear atheism?

A rambling post today. Fuzzy brained and foot loose!

 

  I was recently thinking about the concept of free will. It's an idea that has always bothered me, like a tickle at the back of the throat. I firmly believe in cause and effect. I firmly believe in the laws of physics and what they imply. So without an outside force, it makes sense that everything is controlled very directly by these laws. Including us. The logic behind it is fairly simple. I'm guessing it's the complexity of existence and the relative simplicity of our minds that makes choice such a plausible illusion. But an illusion is what it must be.

 

   This used to scare me. Deep down, I do not actively enjoy the idea of being so mundane and effectually predictable. Trapped. And in my mind, nothing special. Accepting that there's nothing beyond death was easy. Accepting the fact that I am a huge equation was much harder. After all, I chose what I valued and valued choice for itself.

 

  I spent a long time letting the idea sink past my emotions and into my more rational core. Eventually I decided that it didn't matter. How I make a choice, be it simply chemical predetermined or an active and separate process, matters much less than what my choice does. If my actions make the world better in some way my goal has been accomplished. And thinking back on this fear now, I can understand the desire to reject the idea of determinism altogether. Anything that removes our safety nets and makes us feel small tends to be met with the same resistance. Science gets the brunt of this reaction, but determinism falls right in with plenty of people.

 

   So with all this in mind, I wonder what other people think on the subject. Is it frightening to think of yourself as an eventuality? Has anyone come across anything contrary to the idea of determinism? Do we perhaps agree? Thoughts, please!

Views: 191

Tags: determinism, fate, free, will

Comment by Kirsten on June 13, 2011 at 5:35pm
Also: Open Office Writer + taking from the blog here = really odd formatting.  Pardon me!
Comment by Mo Trauen on June 13, 2011 at 10:35pm
I don't fear determinism; I am resigned to it.
Comment by Derek on June 14, 2011 at 12:43am

@Mo Trauen

 

That reminds me of "Condemned to be free" - Sartre

Comment by Mo Trauen on June 14, 2011 at 1:30am

@Derek,

That's quite a compliment.  Thank you. 

Comment by Michael Edminster on June 14, 2011 at 3:22am

Loving this discussion, Kirsten... everybody. It's great to find such an active community on the web.

Also... gonna take some time to look through the responses and come up with a response deserving of the debate.

@Kirsten, apologies if I took the discussion in a different direction. I ramble when I'm stoned on the internet late at night.

I don't have any problems with determinism as an explanation of consciousness and choice. It's the best one we've got so far.

To quickly answer the two points of discussion you reiterated: I'm trained as a linguist, so I'm not sure I can answer the question "Is determinism factual?" because I'm not even sure what the word "factual" means. The second question, on the other hand, seems to have been answered by the significant response in this here comment section.

Chin-chin!

Comment by Dr. del Toro on June 14, 2011 at 4:40am

Kirsten:

I apologize for the comment on your understanding of hypocrisy. My interpretation and use of the word differs from yours and to argue semantics is arbitrary. I would use the term "delusional" as I think it better fits the context. From my Dictionary.com iPhone app (by far one of my favorite apps) I think the following definition for delusion fits best:

"4. Psychiatry . a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact: a paranoid delusion."

I can agree with you there. The avoidance of being hypocritical as well as delusional is something I aim for as well.

I just don't think that determinism is something to be feared. I think it is irrelevant. I may like to believe in free will, but that doesn't mean I won't entertain the idea of determinism: We simulate the future. We cannot explain how we can do this, but we all seem to simulate the future in our minds. Time and time again we find that our actions conflict with what we thought we would do in certain situations. Something such as a soldier going to war knowing that he may have to kill someone and accepting it and believing that he could make the decision to kill when the time came, but when that time actually comes he finds that he is unable to pull the trigger. Determinism can explain this very well.

I guess when I think of it that way, I can see how determinism is a very good explanation. I see how the understanding of determinism can be important in understanding ourselves, but the idea of free will is still just as important to learn about and understand, even if it is seen as an illusion.

So I guess the outcome for me has been that determinism is the best explanation for what is happening, but I will not disregard the role of free will, even as an "illusion." The idea of free will as a concept is something that I believe to be important. Without at least an "illusion" of free will I'm not sure we can hope to function effectively. There are many theories, some theories even combining elements from both sides. The best way I see free will vs. determinism is within psychology.  There is also the nature vs. nurture issue.

This whole discussion has me thinking about Schroedinger's Cat and the many worlds interpretation (MWI) of quantum mechanics, as well as the many minds interpretation which extends from MWI. I don't know if you've ever read Anathem by Neal Stephenson, but I enjoyed that book and thought that the real world theories were applied nicely to the story. You can't base everything on classical mechanics anymore. We are delving deeper and deeper into quantum mechanics and discovering that subatomic particles seem to behave erratically.

Here is an interesting article (a few years old) about two Princeton mathematicians who believe they have mathematically proven the existence of free will:

http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/35391/title/Math_Trek__D...

Here is another interesting article, this one about quantum biology:

http://discovermagazine.com/2009/feb/13-is-quantum-mechanics-contro...

 

It's fun to think either way about free will vs. determinism, but I don't think that free will requires "supernatural" forces as an explanation.  I guess the problem I had with the post was the assumption that free will is nothing but an illusion.  If we are equations then the equations are a vast series of probabilities. We're coming closer and closer to finding answers, but it seems that with every discovery a multitude of questions appear as well.  And it's up to us to pursue the answers, forever...

 

"Look at me still talking when there's science to do."

                                                        -GLaDOS

Comment by Kirsten on June 14, 2011 at 12:37pm

   Both good articles. I really enjoyed the Dicover one especially. Quantum pathing is a very interesting phenomena. I'll be keeping an eye on those two subjects over the next few years. The mathematicians have a lot of ground to cover; I personally wonder if there is an unknown physical force at work. Only time will tell.

 

   Thank you both for the clarifying responses. I appreciate it very much, and sorry for being unclear to begin with. 

Comment by Chris Townsend on June 14, 2011 at 9:29pm

So, just to throw a few things into the mix...

 

It seems there is validity in the general idea of determinism and free will (Compatabilism) in that I choose what I think about based on the reality that surrounds me at a particular time, my thoughts then are translated into actions and my actions shape my reality in that future moment which would then be the present.    

 

Another thing that I thought of when reading this was more related to theological determinism (predestination) though it is related in some ways to some of the other forms, is a underlying and foundational premise that most people with the predestination perspective operate on but it is often overlooked.  It is the idea that if I believe in theological determinism, then part of the reason why this seems valid to me is that I am considering that everything is created for a particular purpose i.e. - form determines function.  For example, a proton is created to have a positive charge and so the very nature by which it exists, it is predestined to be attracted to a negatively charged particle or atmosphere...thus, it's path is laid before it.  A clock is designed to track time...so, while it may very well serve as a paperweight, it is rather predestined to be what it was created for.  A great illustration of how this applies to humans is found in the Star Wars series when we examine the role of Luke Skywalker.  "Luke, it is your destiny."  hahaha  I am not trying to say that I ascribe to theological determinism, and while I do see validity in the perspective, I also see value in the other forms of determinism and think that they are all equally valid.  

 

When we study quantum mechanics and subjects like cellular molecular biology, we see many processes and behold many observations that we peculate and theorize on, but have yet to prove or come to full agreement on within the scientific community.  These forces and possibilities of dimensions unknown and such are all beyond our current understanding and beyond natural explanation i.e. - supernatural.  I don't suggest the word supernatural in a mystical theological sense, but rather in it's more proper and basic sense in that there are forces at work that we have yet to qualify much less quantify.  I think one thing that most quantum physicists and scientists in general can agree on is that there is much more to our reality that science can explain at this point in time.  I say that really more-so in response to Kristen's statement, "I personally wonder if there is an unknown physical force at work."  Since it seems to be fairly obvious to me and the scientific community at large that there is most assuredly not only one unknown physical force at work, but most likely, many physical forces at work that are as of yet, unknown.  This is also reflected in Dr. del Toro's statement, "We're coming closer and closer to finding answers, but it seems that with every discovery a multitude of questions appear as well." to which I fully agree :)

Comment by Kirsten on June 14, 2011 at 9:48pm

"I choose what I think about based on the reality that surrounds me at a particular time" - This is the part I don't agree with. Thought is a physical process and thus bound in with the rest. It may be very, very complex, but it would also be completely predetermined. You could not think anything other than what you thought, because your thought is the sum of your life and the universe you have existed in till that point, which is the sum of how ever many other particles and events in sequence happening before and leading to that point. 

 

I think I need some physicists to sit down and chat with. Maybe some people in cognitive neurology. I've philosophied it to death in my own mind a dozen times over.

 

Also, Chris? You may want to break your paragraphs down. They tend to be pretty huge and it makes reading a little bit difficult at times. Just an observation!

Comment by Joseph COulter on June 17, 2011 at 5:39am
"Is determinism factual?"

When you're getting into things this close to epistemology, I think it's important return to the basic truths that only rational knowledge can be interpreted as truely and surely factual, while empirical truths are things we just call true because they're very probably true. So what I would say is that as of now, it really only makes since to think that determinism is probably true, and cannot be proven to be true. It's kind of like how when someone asks me what my religion is, I tell them I'm an atheist, even though technically I'm agnostic, because there's no way to prove that god doesn't exit, but there's no reason to think that he does exist. So here are the following undetermined things that would need to be proven in order for it to be conclusively known that the future is set in stone and "free will" doesn't exist.

1. The phylosophy of naturalism is on the rite track(non-physical things do not exist)
2. Human cognition comes from our physical make-up
3.There are no random events in physics, all can be mathematically calculated.

So while I'm pretty sure that all three of these are true, and that therefor the future is probably set in stone, they aren't proven yet, and more importantly that point number 1 cannot be proven or disproven, unfortunately.

"Is this idea frightening?"

No, not at all to me. First of all I think I should emphasize that I'm really not sure if I interpret determinism as a lack of free will. By some peoples interpretation, we do make decisions on our own, it's just that our decisions are in the future, and the future is set in stone. People also seem to habitually think that a lack of free will or deviation in future mean that nothing we do matters, however I believe that no matter how scripted our actions are, it's an incredible adventure. We also live in an incredible time which just so happens to be the only time in the history of the world where we can expect that the previously mentioned questions 2 and 3 may be answered.

Anthropologists generally say that what separates us from other species is culture, however I think that this is a grossly inadequate statement. What separates us from other species is our ability to render long term pattern recognition, and take that long term pattern recognition into account to augment our environment. Pattern recognition and future telling are really the same thing. I believe that what makes us unique is our ability to manipulate the world with our knowledge of determinism, and we will only come out with more exciting things.

I hope I make sense. I've had a lot to drink.

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