Comment by Bryan B on April 11, 2011 at 9:33pm

@Ryan yes you are right but imagine if he said those things about jews ot African Americans. I just hate that he gets to spew that kind of hatred at unbelievers and get away with it.

Comment by Albert Bakker on April 12, 2011 at 1:17am

Looks to me like he's digging his own hole. Maybe it's better not to interfere or even encourage him a bit to dig deeper. Maybe we're at the brink of seeing the apologists disappear in their own gaps, trying desperately to hang on to one last faulty syllogism.

Comment by Tom Margolis on April 12, 2011 at 5:48am

Wikipedia has a good page about the relationship between intelligence and atheism, and between education and atheism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence

BUT - There may be a genetic predisposition for belief in the supernatural, regardless of intelligence/education:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/belief-and-the-brains-god...

There are brilliant Harvard Divinity School professors with outstanding analytical abilities - except when it comes to religion. A good friend of mine is an extremely intelligent and analytical scientist with a Ph.D. in molecular biology - but he has a blind spot about God. So I wouldn't assume that theism arises from low intelligence or lack of education; emotions and cognitive filtering can drive theism.

Comment by Keith J. on April 12, 2011 at 11:10am

I'm only in Calc 1, still have two semesters left after this.  I've only finished two semesters of Chem, and I haven't even started my Physics yet.  I'm probably never going to take a Theology class... and while I did get an "A" in Philosophy, I never touched the textbook (I wonder how that approach would've worked out in any of my Maths or Sciences?).  My lack of education is a blight on me.

Comment by Dan on April 12, 2011 at 12:53pm

@Cathy Cooper

 

I find it ironic that you are offended by Craig and then make comments like this:

 

"Whether it be the Enlightenment of earlier times, or the modern Enlightenment, when people are allowed to think and be reflective, and they have access to all the information, i.e. education, then you will have a rise in atheists and agnostics because the inconsistencies and contradictions within religion, the belief in gods and goddesses, and Christianity in particular."

 

You call Craig a bigot because he suggested that some atheists are uneducated. Then you turn around and say that education leads to atheism--implying rather clearly that theists are uneducated. Let's at least be intellectually consistent here.

Comment by Cathy Cooper on April 12, 2011 at 3:21pm

@Dan

Yes, I was offended that he implied that atheists are "uneducated blue collar workers."  Whereas I claimed  that those that have been to college and those that have not, can reason for themselves, as long as they are given the proper information.

Personally, I became an atheist via education, and many people have done the same.  There are others, however, that never became theists, or became atheists on their own.

 

For Craig to infer that atheists are "ignorant uneducated blue collar workers" is ignorant and bigoted.  Anyone can be an atheist, but I stand by my statement that education CAN lead to atheism.  It does not necessarily lead to atheism, but it certainly CAN lead to atheism.

Comment by Dan on April 12, 2011 at 3:33pm

@Cathy Cooper

 

Given what I quoted above and the following sentence--"When people are able to apply deductive and inductive logic and the H-D method, they are more apt to come to better conclusions, and choose the best explanations."--it sounded to me as if you are implying that "better conclusions" and "best explanations" equal atheism. There are undoubtedly many who apply logic and reason, yet reach a different conclusion.

 

Of course, you have to admit that there are uneducated and ignorant atheists as well as theists, neither of whom have critically thought through their positions. Perhaps Craig didn't mean to imply that all atheists are uneducated. Perhaps, seeing that you would like me to give you the benefit of the doubt regarding what you meant in the quotes above, you could do the same for Craig.

Comment by Cathy Cooper on April 12, 2011 at 3:42pm

@ Dan--No--I said they could make better decisions and decide for themselves when they had all the arguments and information.  I said my education led me to atheism, but that is not necessarily so for everyone.

I will not give Craig the benefit of the doubt--he said what he said. What Craig said implies that he is an elitist, and a bigot.

Comment by Dan on April 12, 2011 at 5:53pm

@Cathy Cooper

 

OK, I tried to be diplomatic about it. Again, you said "...when people are allowed to think and be reflective, and they have access to all the information, i.e. education, then you will have a rise in atheists and agnostics because the inconsistencies and contradictions within religion, the belief in gods and goddesses, and Christianity in particular." Your statement is equally as offensive as Craig's, and for exactly the same reason. But more damning for you is your inability to understand that or to accept it. If Craig is an elitist and a bigot, then you are too. But you've shown that you are dense and/or arrogant, as well. 

Comment by Cathy Cooper on April 12, 2011 at 6:38pm

@ Dan

As a scholar, I never get tired of promoting reflectivity.  In this case, you would do better to read and think about what you are saying before you say it.  Furthermore, what I said was workers who have not been to college or have no formal education, will have this same tendency when provided with ALL of the information and explanations and all the various arguments.  Your ad hominem attack phases me not, as sticks and stones may break my bones, but your ad hominem can never hurt me---nor my argument---as arguments aer judged on their validity and soundness.

 

It was Craig that used the term "uneducated", to make reference to blue collar workers, as I pointed out above.  In response to this, and what the bishop told me, I said:

"The so-called "uneducated peasants" ARE able to understand and choose the best arguments and explanations when they are provided with all the information."

 

In response to Bryan on the previous page I stated:

"Whether or not a person has a degree in philosophy and religion is neither here nor there for me.  I only care about their arguments one way or the other.  Even if I was walking by a homeless person, who explained he had never been to school, but asked me to evaluate an argument he constructed with chalk on the sidewalk, I would give it the same consideration as if he had graduated from McGill, Harvard, or Oxford, or any other university.  Malcolm X is an example of a great scholar who had no formal secondary schooling--he was mostly self taught. "

 

And to top that off, my favorite philosopher, John Stuart Mill, did not have a degree in philosophy!!  All I care about is the arguments--not petty ad hominen attacks.

 

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