




Comment by kelltrill on February 7, 2011 at 8:30am lol, I'm so sorry about the rest of your post. I'm sure it was wonderful. Apparently the site is having issues lately which they're trying to get sorted out. I've seen several people bitching about the same problems on other threads.
With regards to the part of your post that made it through:
I agree with what you say about education. It is just one of many tools and can easily be misused by those in power. I suppose I should have been more specific. When I refer to education I mean literacy and critical thinking, introspection, skepticism, and fostering a questioning mind which will limit the number of gullible people in the world and thereby diminish the superstitious. I suppose it's a tall order, but ideally that's what we should be striving for. Education free from propaganda. Otherwise we'll just be creating another Zim.
Comment by luvtheheaven on May 16, 2011 at 4:46am
Comment by Pope OoO (Out of Order) on May 16, 2011 at 5:31am Ok. So, laws are absolute. They always apply, always have, and always will.
Reo, scientific "laws" are not as absolute as you seem to believe. Scientific laws are the best description of reality possible, and are expected to be corrected and improved as new evidence is observed. Einstein improved our understanding immensely, but even he couldn't produce all final, absolute laws about the universe, and he was humble enough to know that.
That is in stark contrast to religionists proclaiming various idiotic laws and backing it up by saying it came from God and can never be questioned or changed. Like AIDS is a lie, or condoms are sinful. Quoting scripture only repeats what mortal men wrote thousands of years ago. What's the point, besides just saying that the laws you believe in are absolute and eternal, and you think everyone else should just believe the same thing because it's written in the bible? Don't you have even the slightest compassion for poor, ignorant people in Africa falling for this crap, and dying because of it?
Comment by kelltrill on May 16, 2011 at 6:12am @Reo, I've done my best to back up the majority of what I said. Since I couldn't link every single statement or put an in-text reference in every time I said anything there are inevitably several claims which stand out as baseless. They are not. This was not an academic article. The points that were fundamental to the post I made sure I backed up. The rest was simply discussion.
@luv & Paul, thanks for commenting. I'm at work at the moment so can't reply in too much depth, but you two seem to have answered adequately enough :) Thanks.
Comment by Jaume on May 16, 2011 at 7:46am Not (That) Paul Ryan: Reo, scientific "laws" are not as absolute as you seem to believe. Scientific laws are the best description of reality possible, and are expected to be corrected and improved as new evidence is observed.
That's scientific theories you're talking about here. Scientific laws are indeed considered absolute within the theories they're relevant to. E.g., Newton's law of universal gravitation is absolute within Newton's theory of gravitation, although the theory itself was improved upon.
/nitpick
Comment by luvtheheaven on May 16, 2011 at 4:22pm I've heard the creator argument before, and so has Kelltrill. We're on this site. We've heard it all before. It doesn't convince us. What created God in your opinion, seeing as he exists in your mind? He couldn't have created himself, he would have to exist already to do that. If he "always just existed" in your mind, why can't the universe have just "always just existed" in mine? I think we don't know, and I don't claim to know. The Big Bang Theory explains a lot, but for anything it doesn't explain I don't need a "God of the gaps" argument to satisfy me. I'm good with just not knowing. Either way I don't have any reason to believe that the Christian god exists and neither does kelltrill.
I also don't understand why you're saying truth is objective. We all agree on that. It's not subjective. Something is either true or it isn't. XD Atheists tend to know that much more than theists... Lol.
Comment by kelltrill on May 17, 2011 at 3:36am If you can say that God has always existed and is infinite why is it a stretch to apply this same logic to the universe? It is likely that the universe is infinite and has always existed. Greater minds than I such as cosmologist Stephen Hawking have acknowledged this possibility. The Creator and First Cause arguments are old already.
Besides which, say this is not the case and that the universe did have a first cause. We simply do not know what that first cause was. This does not mean we must fill in the gaps in our scientific understanding with the existence of a supernatural deity. No answer in the history of historical and scientific inquiry and understanding has ever had a magical explanation. There is nothing wrong with simply Not Knowing. It is dangerous to assume we know everything (in the godditit sense) because it stunts further knowledge. Many who say that God is the ultimate creator do not feel the need to explore the question further. This fosters a dangerous, stagnant mindset and is not a constructive way to view the world.
Reo.. sorry but you have unwittingly supported my comments.. this belief that heaven is their reward, is their undoing!
If there was something on the other side of a crocodile infested river, which has been my hearts desire all my life, would I risk life and limb to cross the river in order to get this amazing reward? Is it worth it? My logic is that if I want to remain alive, I have to dismiss the fantasies and live with the here and now... what I see, not what is unattainable and is probably a mirage anyway!
I presented our charity at a conference in Newcastle, England 3months ago. The theme was Inequality. One of the other speakers was from a faith based charity and pontificated on how their mission was to build churches in Africa, alongside the humanitarian work. I asked the following rather lengthy question.." After many visits to 8 of Africa's countries, I want to tell you about a visit I made to Liberia in 2009. We visited an MSF Children's Hospital in the capital. This hospital was functioning partly in a grubby tent where obviously very sick infants (I'm a retired neonatal nurse), where staff were doing their best to care for them. In the main hospital there were babies on shelves and some beds had 3 children in each. It was appalling. When we left the hospital, I noticed a pristigne looking building right next door..a church! This church could have been picked up and placed anywhere in thr west, it looked as though it was painted on a weekly basis. As I looked at these two buildings, I thought "This is the greatest example of inequality I have ever seen." I asked the speaker why they don't cut out the church building and give all the aid to the people? I got a round of applause for my question. The speaker said "I didn't say we would build churches" to which I replied, "Yes you did because my heart sank when I heard it!" He went on to say that he didn't literally mean BUILD churches he meant communities! I told him that if someone says they are going to build a church, to me, that means bricks and mortar. He came over to me at lunchtime and the discussions continued. I think he deduced that I am an atheist. Two people in the audience spoke to me, saying they thought I had given him a hard time, to which I replied, "It's not as hard a time as those children in the hospital are having." Both said they were Christians and preach.. they also said that they would use my story in their sermons!! I believe that it is worth repeating.. it is no co-incidence that the most religious countries are the poorest and often the most repressed and especially for women, South America with Catholicism, SubSaharan Africa with Christianity.. the list goes on and on......
Comment by Brian Stewart on May 17, 2011 at 5:28am @Reo: it would seem that you are interpreting concepts like 'truth' 'objectivity' etc in your own particular manner...and that is your opinion which you are fully entitled to. Also your view of the singularity known as the Big Bang is again your own interpretation of the so-called truth. It has been stated that the 'original mechanism' is not known but that this is not an argument for a deity (Gap God theory) yet you ignore the fundamental question of who created your god? and his/her god etc etc...
The notion that the word of god as depicted in the Judeo-Christian Bible is non-contradictory, and the 'truth' (there's that concept again as seen by you), is not only ludicrous but untruthful. Have you studied the origin of the bible? Do you know who wrote the Pentateuch, the Gospels etc.? Have you read what theologians and scholars such as anthropologists, historians etc say about for example the enigmatic persona known as Moses? Can you provide any evidence that the Jews lived as slaves in Egypt? Or that they fled through the Red Sea (or sea of reeds) and destroyed a whole army of Egyptian pursuers?
The existence or not of a god or gods (over 2800 gods and goddesses have been created by man since man learned to rite), is a question as old as man’s thoughts about his origin. It is the product of mysticism which is the opposite of reason, truth and honesty. Many god-concepts were used by people who wished to influence and manipulate others for their own purposesand Christiantity and Islam are no different. History is full of these gods and the more violent they were, the better. The Jewish god, Yahweh or Jehovah was a cruel and destructive god according to the Torah. It took the Jews centuries to believe that Yahweh was the only god. Even then although they eventually worshipped Yahweh, they also accepted that other gods existed. When Mohammad brought his new religion of Islam down from Mount Hira where he first experienced the embrace of an angel instructing him to recite (iqra), Arabs believed in a number of gods. Muhammad was however adamant and totally unrelenting that only Al-Llah be worshipped. This led to bloody battles and wars of attrition. But as I said earlier, gods and devils are the manifestation of man’s need to look for outside forces to either blame or seek strength in for his own mistakes or even his good fortune.
On the point Angela is making, the following (I am a white African):
I travelled through and extensively worked in under-developed countries. The skeletons of aid programmes lie scattered throughout these countries. Western churches have operated for centuries in areas where developmental needs created opportunities for them to establish massive support bases. I don’t deny that hospitals and schools built by the churches have filled gaps governments have failed to address, but most of these are totally dependent on foreign aid and are not sustainable. In any event, aid programmes should never usurp the role of government as this creates a beggar mentality and dependence. Development as I understand it should empower the local people to fend for themselves and make their own choices, even if these choices are inconvenient to the donor. As with religion, people have been denied the choice and more often than not they are kept in a position of relative ignorance in order that they can be manipulated and controlled to conform to value systems the foreign churches subscribe to; or even worse, they are bribed, threatened and coerced to accept the value systems of the donors. None of these donors actually thought to work within local values; their mandates from the Pope, Archbishop, Grand Ayatollah, Guru, Holy See or whatever did not cater for that eventuality. Bilateral agreements between donor mystics and recipient political mystics are sure to fail every time." (extracted from "Moses was a Liar" Stewart, B Raider Books 2010 NY)
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