Comment by uroborosmessiah on November 10, 2009 at 8:35am

Totally agree, with what you have said, as someone raised without belief I spend a lot of time explaining to my friends the difference between what I see as atheism being without belief and anti-theism being against belief.

This I think comes down to so called 'new-atheists' that are just angry at the realisation that they have been lied to for so long. When all they have to do is accept that this is the case and be content in their new understanding of the universe.

There will always be people on the extremes, militantism appears in every belief system and atheism is no different. This will over time, with understanding become diluted but to many at the moment this is so fresh and raw that they feel the need to 'fight their corner' and defend themselves even when they are not being challenged.

Comment by Shine on November 10, 2009 at 11:42am

To take away a man’s faith, his hopes and dreams, no matter how sad we think them is very wrong.

Not if these hopes and dreams involve persecuting others who disagree with the dreams.

I agree with you in the sense that "harmless" believers--often labeled as "moderate Christians"--should not be subject to unprovoked ideological attacks. However, these harmless believers must recognize the brutal atrocities and hateful bigotry condoned by their religion. It is unconscionable not to speak out against the institutions which continue to promote these heinous acts.

If this general criticism against religion is taken as a personal attack on the moderate believer, then perhaps they should better distinguish themselves. Any Christian who is earnestly offended by attacks on their religion had best be prepared to fully defend the Westboro Baptist Church and other hateful Christian sects. Moderate Christians must realize that by continuing to promote their own stance as "harmless," they are also promoting the validity of all other groups who operate under the umbrella of Christianity.

Comment by Danielle on November 10, 2009 at 7:25pm

@uroborosmessiah "There will always be people on the extremes, militantism appears in every belief system and atheism is no different. This will over time, with understanding become diluted but to many at the moment this is so fresh and raw that they feel the need to 'fight their corner' and defend themselves even when they are not being challenged."

I don't think militant atheism really exists - I mean yes there some how are blatantly anti-theist, a lot are content to settle on their non-belief quietly, and most fall somewhere in the middle, and attack harmful religious practices, or when religion is affecting them negatively (and/or unlawfully), but don't call for an end to private religious practices. But even the extreme anti-theists I don't think can be called "militant", just because they are more extreme than the rest of that group of people doesn't mean they should be labeled with the same word as militant muslims or christians. Yes, technically the definition of the word "militant" includes just being very aggressive, in which case these atheists ARE militant, but the way the word is used to describe other groups of people. I don't see as many (or any?) atheists killing religious folk for their religion as Christians or Muslims have - and it just rubs me the wrong way to classify the extreme side of atheism with the same word. Again, I realize it technically falls under the second definition of militant, but it just doesn't fit in with the usual terms "militant [insert religion here]". It sends the wrong message.

Although, I also think it's best to leave theists alone unless provoked by them questioning you about atheism, or by them trying to interfere with the government/some sort of institution/etc.

Comment by Stacy B on November 12, 2009 at 3:31pm

"To take away a man’s faith, his hopes and dreams, no matter how sad we think them is very wrong."

Why would you look at it that way instead of as giving that man more stable hopes and dreams? Atheism isn't the antithesis of hope. Dreams adapt. If someone has trouble adapting their dreams to a new reality that isn't due to anything related to the new reality or the old reality, but to other characteristics of the person.

No one needs religion. I'll say it again - no one needs religion. There are plenty of other sources for hopes and dreams and all that. Reality is full of them. We certainly should advocate finding the beauty in reality instead of covering it with a subpar delusion just because it's easier. I guarantee that if someone can't find hope and happiness in reality then they couldn't truly find it in religion, either.

And it's a bit silly to say things like "shouldn't we be above that?" You can't fix stupid whether it's a stupid atheist or a stupid theist. There will be stupid on all sides. Yeah, it would be great to "be above that," but some individuals, regardless of beliefs or lack thereof, just aren't on that level.

Comment by Rich Meredith on November 17, 2009 at 12:27pm

Some interesting points raised there.. I agree with you all for the most part. I was of course using the second definition of miltant and not tarnishing us with the same extremism as the ultra conservatives. I was raised without any religion at all so sometimes I can see things that others cannot as to me its all a bit of a mystery why anyone would need it but that said, there are those that do. I have met many people who are unable to function without the strange hopes communicated by religion - for those who need that crutch, then leave them have it as long as it doesn't interfere with the what the rest of us are doing. Indeed atheism is not the antithesis of hope.. that wasn't what I was saying but to many it probably represents just that.. it's all a matter of perspective and education at the end of the day. There will always be those who crave the insubstantial and metaphysical. All we can do as a group is to watch and listen and interject where appropriate and defned when attacked without cause or reason. If we can successfully replace a man/womans faith in the mystic realms with reality then that's all well and good.. but it isn't an easy task.
yes, there will be "stupid" on all sides but yes, we should strive to be above much of the nonsense otherwise we may fall on our own swords without need. A bit of self monitoring is sometimes the key. As ever reason and rationality are our best assets. For some of you who have grown up in the US where the culture is SO different to my own, then I can perhaps understand the more vituperative emotions involved in confronting so prevalent a religious culture as exists here.. I had no wish to offend any of you.. but those were my thoughts.
Thanks for the comments

Comment by Corey Lord on November 17, 2009 at 1:09pm

I agree with you totally Rich! Thank you for such a brilliant post. Hopefully more atheists can see it this way and make our cause more meaningful.

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