I realise that I have already discussed this in the forum are of the site, but I wanted to post something in a blog form giving my full thoughts on the issue

So the topic I want to address in this blog is the Christian concept of “We are all born sinners” (otherwise known as Original Sin). As a non-Christian I personally do not believe we are all born sinners . But as the title suggests I believe we are all born innocent until proven guilty. 

But what is sin? From a Christian perspective you may get some various different answers whenever you ask this simple question to a Christian “What is a sin?”. Most Christians will tell you that it is a violation of “God’s Law”. And what is God’s law, Gods law in terms of the bible is what is deemed to be morally acceptable. 

So with that understanding when one says that “We are all born sinners”, they are actually saying that we are all born immoral. Lets think about that for a moment and what such a claim is entailing. These people believe that from the moment you are born you are automatically an immoral person. Despite having not perfumed not even one immoral act. This sort of belief is potentially very psychologically damaging. In has cause many Christians to go through life literally feeling guilty for simply being born. Because quite simply put the very simple act that they were born at all, is a sin. It is a sin to be born. The Christian religion and its scripture is actually preaching and teaching; that all human beings are born defective. 

But outside of the structure of belief there is no concept of sin as such. When someone performs a bad act its either deemed as illegal, or unethical etc. And understanding that religion requires indoctrination before one accepts or believes in it; it is therefore impossible to be born a sinner. Sinning is performing a bad deed against the Christian God’s law. Infants don’t automatically believe in this God from birth and therefore cannot be held responsible for breaking the laws of a religion they have not sworn any allegiance to. It would be like accusing all the Christians of haram for breaching Islamic beliefs. 

The only argument I have seen against this charge that Original Sin is a vast oxymoron is quite simply “It just means we are not born perfect”. Unfortunately such an argument is a contradiction of what many Christians accept to be sin and notably inconsistent wight he concept and belief of sin. Most Christians agree that sin, does not simply mean “imperfect”, it means to break God’s law, disobey God, perform an immoral act in the eyes of God. In short, a sin is performing a bad deed. It has nothing to do with perfection and I’m certainly not implying that anyone is born perfect either. This argument from perfection is a very weak argument indeed and holds no relevance to what sin really means by any understanding of the word. 

I fully reject any notion that we are all born defective or wilfully bad. I believe that we are all born innocent until proven guilty. We are born naive, innocent, unaware of the world we are entering; and have committed no crime. It is unjustified to deem the simple matter of being born as a crime. As the good old saying goes:

“it is the innocence of a child”

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Comment by Physeter on July 12, 2014 at 12:30am

Atheism: So you never have to work out what words like "federal headship" mean just to reassure yourself that babies are NOT little bundles of sin.

Comment by Joshua D. on July 12, 2014 at 12:41am
Oh no they are definitely little bundles of sin. Try to take something from a baby it wants but can't have. Little wretches just like the rest of us.
Comment by Physeter on July 12, 2014 at 9:20am

Babies do grow up. They haven't learned yet what is appropriate and inappropriate behavior, so they act out. That doesn't mean we can judge them immoral as if they knew what they were doing. That "bundles of sin" terminology is usually used to justify strict spanking methods.

Atheist parent Libby Anne explains why this is such dangerous thinking, and also gives counter-anecdotes from her own children.

From an article she quotes:

Psychologists I interviewed were horrified by Rosemond’s … conception of children as mentally ill, which amounts to a translation of the doctrine of original sin, with its framework of damnation and salvation, into contemporary therapeutic terms. The difference is simple: A two-year-old human being is still learning how to deal with and express her feelings, but a true sociopath has no feelings. To treat a toddler like a sociopath is like studying snakes in order to understand koala bears – and then declaring that koala bears are cold-blooded.

In fact, contrary to Rosemond’s views, research has found that human beings exhibit empathic behavior from as early as 18 months.

Comment by Joshua D. on July 12, 2014 at 10:53am
I think it's a problem with definitions. Sin is anything we engage in that is not to the glory of God.

Are you actually having a discussion with me or a straw man?
Comment by Strega on July 12, 2014 at 2:39pm
Nothing I engage in is to the glory of god. What a daft definition! You make it sound worse than North Korea. I'd hate to live on the planet you imagine.
Comment by Joshua D. on July 12, 2014 at 4:47pm
You certainly would.
Comment by _Robert_ on July 12, 2014 at 4:54pm

 Sin is anything we engage in that is not to the glory of God.

Yadaa Yadda Yadda...

Keep your "we" to yourself. I would never be party to such foolishness. In fact, anything you engage in that is to the glory of God is driven by selfishness; yours and "HIS", Amen.


Comment by Joshua D. on July 12, 2014 at 5:13pm
Do you know that for certain? Let's not get all emotional now guys...

I though tolerance was the name of the game nowadays.

Was I lumping you in with the "we"?

I don't try and offend I just try and be honest about what I believe.
Comment by Strega on July 12, 2014 at 6:53pm
It must be easier to believe when you use the word "we", it must make the content of what you're saying seem a little less incongruous.

Jump, my friend. A million lemmings can't be wrong.
Comment by Joshua D. on July 12, 2014 at 7:10pm
Oh come on now. Assumptions are never a good thing.

The "we" is more of a result of my sales background than my faith but good try.

Just like all the lemmings on here right?

What are you trying to say?

Don't be hateful now...


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