Totally Braced to be Crucified for This....

I personally agree with T-foot on this.

Misogyny is a real problem.  In a world where rape is still used by militaries to demoralize a country's people, how could this be denied?  In a world where girls are kidnapped and forced into prostitution in droves, how could this be denied?  In a world where women's struggle for equal pay and reproductive rights are still an issue in first world countries, how could this be denied?

Do some posters online go too far with sexist comments and other stupidities?  No doubt.  Do some atheist men see women as objects, or what have you?  Absolutely.  Don't think I'm defending these types.  I'm merely suggesting that perhaps we are looking at this and seeing this as the general behaviors when they are in fact the anomolies.

I've been on many atheist forums and chatrooms these past four years.  I love it!  I've never met such cool people in my life!  Our own chatroom here on Think Atheist is awesome!  Great company!  There is a greater percentage of men than women in these forums, just as we see in society.  I've discussed, debated, and shared alot with these guys.  Does the topic of sex come up?  Duh....we're adult humans.  And sex is a fun topic for most of us!  But I've never, EVER felt, in the hundreds of forum situations I've been in, that if I felt uncomfortable or uninterested in those types of discussions, I would be ostracized or criticized for saying so.  I have found that 90% or greater of atheist men I've encountered online are courteous, gentlemanly, and intellectually engaging.  Personally, I find it insulting that these wonderful men are being lumped together and branded sexist, walking penises that only want women atheists around for one thing. And if you can't see the irony in how they are being perceived, then I'm sorry for you.

There are REAL women's issues out there.  Feminism is a REAL stance.  But I can't even allow myself to consider myself a feminist, who fights for equality and human rights for women worldwide, when feminism is now beginning to mean "how DARE you think I'm attractive as well as intelligent" or "you asked me out on a date because you were interested in me?  YOU PIG!".  THIS is not feminism....this is stupidity. 

Just my observation.

Views: 1141

Comment by Gallup's Mirror on January 10, 2013 at 2:46pm

The women that you talk of, my brother speaks of, are a whole different ball game, they have a different agenda, and this is where the hairy arsed lesbian gets it name.

This seems like a "lesbians hate men" stereotype. Please tell me that's not what you meant.   

Comment by archaeopteryx on January 10, 2013 at 3:42pm

Lesbians have among them as many differences as anyone else - some hate men, some don't, others only hate specific men.

I'm heterosexual, but it doesn't automatically follow that in order to prefer women, I must hate men. In fact, except for my idiot-son-in-law (one word!), I don't hate anyone.

Comment by Suzanne Olson-Hyde on January 11, 2013 at 1:33am
I am just against what the word feminism has unfortunately evolved into in today's world - yep, that is the way it is, words and titles usurped. The same with atheism, words and ttiles taken over, Intelligent design etc. etc.

Ah, yes, the hairy arsed - invented by men, in the 1980's who are knocked back by any female, a woman who doesn't see 'the delights' of a male, just must be a lesbian. I have been called a lesbian, for that reason, it evolved into 'she is just a hairy arsed lesbian', and I just smiled. Nobody was ever going to know if I had a hairy arse, or not :)

I, in a previous life, lived with a couple of gay guys, one was nice, the other an idiot.

My brother' s best friend is a lesbian, her partner is not a nice person, same old, same old. The women who are usurping the 'feminist agenda' are not feminists, and are not lesbians. That is the point. Feminism has evolved into, 'They must be lesbian'. Not true. I have grown up in the feminist era, and know what they are about, and their agenda, and I like the name feminist, same as I like the title of the women before in another era, the suffragettes, who really took a bullet for the cause. Freedom to live their life how they choose, and not legally blocked as is the case.

Steve G - I know what you meant, for the same reason you give. These women are sexist, and anti-feminst, as in the Amy Davis Roth debacle, I can never work out what they are afraid of. Did you ever work that out, or what do you think their problem was. I also don't hate anyone, oh, maybe the ex, and then there is the pope, and his henchman George Pell, yep, I do think I have a list :)
Comment by Steven G-man on January 11, 2013 at 2:42am

@Suzanne

Oh I know the issue, knew it from day one. When asked why we (the class) wanted to be nurses, EVERY single person said to help people. Let me be clear, helping people is fantastic, however, why would you want to take a job that pays 30 an hour to start with one of the highest burnout rates in any major profession and without the promise of a full time job (almost a total of half of nurses are labelled as part time) just to help people? Wanna help, go volunteer. Me? I wanted the money and title of RN. I wanted a good, well-paying job that I could help the people I feel need it the most (wanted to go into children's' mental health) which would allow me to provide for my family and live a comfortable life. Sadly, since what I said did not sound like a selfless act on par with Flo (what they called Florence Nightingale) I was already being singled out. Was always confused how a 150 year old thought on nursing has any affect today, but I digress.

Also, there is this mentality that a man, specifically a straight man, who wants to be a nurse has something wrong with him. Men are expected to do ALL the heavy lifting, to be able to run and give assistance to EVERY call bell and request from other nurses, that somehow men do not need a break to catch there breaths. While apparently doing all this and being mini supermen, every senior nurse keeps an eye out because a male nurse wannabe is a pervert just waiting to be unleashed. I have kept my mouth shut during times when the nurses talked about sexual matters and other such inappropriate subjects, because I know if I join in I will be in shite, and if I call them on it, I will be in shite. I went DAYS at placements not speaking because I know there are some who want to label males as perverts for a comment out of context or lazy for not living up to a superman role. Sadly, it is not just nurses on the floor, but ones that teach too who are like this.

Now, allow me to be clear, not every nurse is like this. I have run into some who were awesome. Nice, polite, kind, and understanding of how males are generally treated. There are many fantastic nurses out there, unfortunately my experiences and observations show that they are being drowned out or burning out from picking up the slack from the above mentioned nurses (male nursing students are supermen and other good nurses work to cover them. I have done more of a nurses job before while she sat there and read, only to give me dirty looks when a call bell went off and I was sitting to do charting).

These A-M are ruining many thing it seems, not just atheism.....

Comment by Suzanne Olson-Hyde on January 11, 2013 at 3:34am

Well, I don't get it - of course, going into a lot of different professions and it doesn't matter what it is, you do want to help, but in Australia, nurses go on organised protests for equal pay to the men, with the men marching with them. Women here expect a living wage, and I think there are a lot more single mothers in the nursing profession, are working full time, and have to keep the family. Times have changed, but society has not. I agree, want to help, go do Meals on Wheels, lots of charity work 'to help' is there for the asking.

I think this problem is huge, generally, especially when they are getting into teaching institutions, and the younger generation don't know or understand what feminism really is, they automatically think it is their 'right' not to be harassed, or that they can vote, or not get the sack when they marry. All hard fought for freedoms. These anti-feminists are doing harm to the average female, and the average feminists. They are looking after their own little patch, instead of what a true feminist is, fighting for the cause, equal pay for equal work, etc. If I am confused, and think they are shitheads, no wonder men, coming into contact with these people, dislike women. 

So, they like a male to be there, to do all the heavy lifting or to cover them when they are reading - but then chastize and bully. It doesn't matter what you did, you couldn't win, same with my bro.

He also, left his job, a job he loved, he can't work out what the agenda was, so gave up, when both professions need men. 

Comment by Cristynfaye on January 15, 2013 at 4:09am

The thing I'm really most confused about is the part about 'no fake jewelry'.  What does that even mean?  I remember going to bible camp as a teenager, and we weren't allowed to wear makeup or jewelry or dress in clothes that fit...are atheist conferences going to be like that now?  Does it mean no jewelry at all?  Are they afraid of like choking hazards, or bad fashion statements?  I seriously don't understand this.

Comment by Unseen on January 15, 2013 at 9:59am

@Suzanne Olson-Hyde

I wonder if the anti-male dynamics are much the same in other traditionally female professions such as elementary school teaching and nannying? Well, nannies aren't organized the way nurses and teacher have organizations. At least, I don't think there are any powerful nanny organizations.

Comment by kris feenstra on January 15, 2013 at 1:34pm

Cristynfaye,

I was also confused by the same thing. As it turns out, the mention of t-shirts and fake jewelry were references to specific actions which targeted Skepchick and/ or Amy Davis Roth (who makes skeptic-themed jewelry). I stopped short of digging any further into the issue once I got the gist because I am not interested in in a skeptics conference themed soap opera. As I understand it, the heart of the complaint was about specific acts of mockery, not a call to ban jewelry.

Comment by Suzanne Olson-Hyde on January 16, 2013 at 4:08am
@ Unseen - elementary school teaching and nannying? I really don't know.

My thinking is, as soon as there is a hierarchy, there could well be problems, from the males and females, but for different reasons.

Even in a small group, with a leader, someone will try to take over, usurp or just bump off.

With males in power in a company, for instance, and he is married, he feels, that because he is so successful, it is his right to have more females, and can get into trouble, if he starts assuming this, with his female colleagues, aka sexual harassment.

But with women going up the ladder, they hate men, because they think the male is trying to usurp them, voila, my partner. The thought of taking over his boss' job had not entered his head, but it had hers. BUT when a woman is a CEO, as there are in Australia, she is usually just a front person, and if she makes big decisions against her male peers, she is a bitch, a dragon, she just needs a good bang.

In Australia, very few men in primary or elementary school, so I don't think it would be a problem there, nannies, yep, no hierarchy that I know off. Even in an Atheist group, I would not join an 'organisation' of Atheists, if there is a hierarchy, there could well be a problem. I have seen this in countless 'groups' of every persuasion.

With contentious business' such as coal, oil gas mining, cigarettes, the person to front the press here are usually women, trying to soften the blow, or so they think. Doesn't work :)
Comment by Cristynfaye on January 16, 2013 at 4:14am

I'm of the belief that if a person feels unsafe, that needs to be dealt with.  Obviously, for whatever reason, some women felt unsafe.  Those feelings are valid, and need to be explored and I think as a community, it would be good to compromise, or at least talk about why people felt unsafe.  However, I don't like the idea of completely de-sexualizing women at these conferences because 1. It makes me feel like I'm back at church camp where I was also made to feel shame for my body and my femininity and sexuality, 2. It makes it sound like men are predators who are always looking for sex and women are silly little girls who just giggle and get fooled into having sex with men, rather than being fully capable human beings who can choose whether or not they want to have sex or flirt, or whatever, 3. What better place to find a like-minded individual with whom you might be able to start a relationship with, than at a conference with a bunch of like-minded people?  I'm sure there are other things, too.  But mostly I just really don't like how this whole thing has polarized so many people within the skeptic/atheist community, when what we need is compassion for each other.  Maybe I sound churchy for saying that, but I believe it's true.  If we want to show Christians and other religious folk that we are moral, loving people who care about shit in the world, then we need to at least have understanding and compassion for each other.  I honestly feel bad that Rebecca Watson, for whatever reason felt violated or unsafe.  Her feelings are her feelings.  If she doesn't want to be hit on, or be asked to a guy's room in the middle of the night, that's her business, and she has every right to feel that way.  What I don't like, is when people start bullying her for those feelings, or when she starts to make rules for other women and men's behavior.  There are wrongs being done on both sides of this argument, in my opinion.

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