Totally Braced to be Crucified for This....

I personally agree with T-foot on this.

Misogyny is a real problem.  In a world where rape is still used by militaries to demoralize a country's people, how could this be denied?  In a world where girls are kidnapped and forced into prostitution in droves, how could this be denied?  In a world where women's struggle for equal pay and reproductive rights are still an issue in first world countries, how could this be denied?

Do some posters online go too far with sexist comments and other stupidities?  No doubt.  Do some atheist men see women as objects, or what have you?  Absolutely.  Don't think I'm defending these types.  I'm merely suggesting that perhaps we are looking at this and seeing this as the general behaviors when they are in fact the anomolies.

I've been on many atheist forums and chatrooms these past four years.  I love it!  I've never met such cool people in my life!  Our own chatroom here on Think Atheist is awesome!  Great company!  There is a greater percentage of men than women in these forums, just as we see in society.  I've discussed, debated, and shared alot with these guys.  Does the topic of sex come up?  Duh....we're adult humans.  And sex is a fun topic for most of us!  But I've never, EVER felt, in the hundreds of forum situations I've been in, that if I felt uncomfortable or uninterested in those types of discussions, I would be ostracized or criticized for saying so.  I have found that 90% or greater of atheist men I've encountered online are courteous, gentlemanly, and intellectually engaging.  Personally, I find it insulting that these wonderful men are being lumped together and branded sexist, walking penises that only want women atheists around for one thing. And if you can't see the irony in how they are being perceived, then I'm sorry for you.

There are REAL women's issues out there.  Feminism is a REAL stance.  But I can't even allow myself to consider myself a feminist, who fights for equality and human rights for women worldwide, when feminism is now beginning to mean "how DARE you think I'm attractive as well as intelligent" or "you asked me out on a date because you were interested in me?  YOU PIG!".  THIS is not feminism....this is stupidity. 

Just my observation.

Views: 1344

Comment by Strega on January 10, 2013 at 9:38am

Susan, I'm a bit confused by your comment regarding "hairy arsed lesbian" nomenclature.  I have reread your post and I am no clearer.  Please could you explain?

Comment by Steven G-man on January 10, 2013 at 11:03am

@ Suzanne

I am better now, but like i mentioned i still break when i think to long on it. but after 4 yrs i finally left that school. I still desire to be a nurse, but it appears being a RN wont happen, so I am going to be a RPN.  The main thing is, even with that nondisclosure paper, which while signed under duress my lawyer could easily toss out, going public would ruin any chance i have for a good career (such is the nature of what they claimed I did and why it broke me, being so severe).

I don't mean when I stated that I was against the classic feminist. Hell, I love all the classic feminists, and going into a primarily female workforce (nursing) I get the need for everyone being on equal footing/respect/pay. I am just against what the word feminism has unfortunately evolved into in today's world. The modern days feminists are more feminazis, what with the believing there is a superior sex, uniforms/dress codes to wear while walking around and hard lined agenda that if you raise questions about you get in trouble. So allow me to clearify then, I am aggressively equal rights and aggressively classical feminism, but aggressively anti-modern feminism.

Comment by CJoe on January 10, 2013 at 11:18am

I'm really glad to see all this being discussed; I have to say, it makes me proud of Think Atheist! Everyone is remaining civil, and no one's been crucified.

Steven, I'm so sorry for your experience. It really sickens me. I was recently trying the feminist label on for size, but now I want to back away from it because of what I've seen (the stuff Thunderf00t is talking about) and my own personal experience with those being discussed in the video. I merely retweeted a blog on fair treatment, and a call to be reasonable and not fling the slur "misogynist" at anyone who criticizes you... and I came under attack by people I'd never even spoken with before. It was such a turn-off. And they've gone after my guy friends, too... my guy friends that are totally supportive of women, and not at all sexist! All this because I was hoping people could just calm down and stop being so reactionary. But then I was accused of being a "sister punisher", a term I'd never even heard before. Apparently, I was punishing my sisters for insisting they be introspective and not treat men the way they'd been treated.

Thunderf00t is right; whatever this is (feminism or something else) really is poisoning the atheist movement. I'll admit, like almost everyone in this discussion has, that sexism is still a problem, and sexual harassment should be taken seriously, and we need to be careful not to minimize people's experiences. EVERYONE'S! Females AND males! Being treated badly does not give someone the right to treat others badly. White men don't deserve to be ignored or vilified just because they're white men. We all have our own individual experiences, and they all matter.

This issue would be much more effectively dealt with if these "Skepchicks" weren't making enemies out of allies... just as I was an ally. But they told me I didn't "get it", and acted like I couldn't possibly have ever been sexually harassed or abused since I was criticizing their method. I was too stupid to see when sexism was staring me in the face. Their condescending tone was uncalled for, and they absolutely made assumptions/judgments about me that were horribly insulting and invalidating. Talk about "sister punishing"!!

I'd really like for all this to go away. Some of us would like a CONSTRUCTIVE dialog without the witch hunts (oh, and apparently I'm not allowed to use that metaphor because sooo many women died during the witch hunts... but the fact they're criticizing my metaphors means their argument is bunk).

I wanted to consider myself a feminist. Instead of defending the label (which once was a force for good), I'd rather adopt the label humanist... which I don't have to explain means women AND men, or all races: the title says it all. There are no misunderstandings. I am for women's rights. I am for men's rights. And when those are sorted out, I'm for animal rights, too.

Comment by Dr.Grixis on January 10, 2013 at 11:40am

OT, I think that the Atheism Plus movement as displayed on the Atheism+ forum is one that reminds me very much of this women that I once knew, she was very insecure and often exclaimed "You do not understand!" and often ranted about how badly behaved people were.

I found her one of the most badly behaved people I've ever knew, as she never, ever felt like having a conversation, instead she would rant, accuse and judge people for things that were neither said or done.

I tend to be quite a nice guy, with some sharp edges, but I sort of always got away with being what I am around her, mainly because I was dating one of her friends. Anyways, at one moment she got angry with this guy for burping, as it was an expression of male brutality and aggression, I started laughing, I just couldn't stop myself, she got so angry with me, and all i could do was laugh and laugh till I was red in the face. Of course, afterwards I was told that she expected me to apologize to her, because although I had the right to laugh, and although I did not exceed any social rules, the girl was hurt and for that fact I should apologize. That sort of behavior reminds me of the whole atmosphere over on the Atheism+ forum.

I loved the whole "Curious/Matt Dillahunty" thing going on, it does give an interesting view to the crazy involved...

Comment by Suzanne Olson-Hyde on January 11, 2013 at 1:33am
I am just against what the word feminism has unfortunately evolved into in today's world - yep, that is the way it is, words and titles usurped. The same with atheism, words and ttiles taken over, Intelligent design etc. etc.

Ah, yes, the hairy arsed - invented by men, in the 1980's who are knocked back by any female, a woman who doesn't see 'the delights' of a male, just must be a lesbian. I have been called a lesbian, for that reason, it evolved into 'she is just a hairy arsed lesbian', and I just smiled. Nobody was ever going to know if I had a hairy arse, or not :)

I, in a previous life, lived with a couple of gay guys, one was nice, the other an idiot.

My brother' s best friend is a lesbian, her partner is not a nice person, same old, same old. The women who are usurping the 'feminist agenda' are not feminists, and are not lesbians. That is the point. Feminism has evolved into, 'They must be lesbian'. Not true. I have grown up in the feminist era, and know what they are about, and their agenda, and I like the name feminist, same as I like the title of the women before in another era, the suffragettes, who really took a bullet for the cause. Freedom to live their life how they choose, and not legally blocked as is the case.

Steve G - I know what you meant, for the same reason you give. These women are sexist, and anti-feminst, as in the Amy Davis Roth debacle, I can never work out what they are afraid of. Did you ever work that out, or what do you think their problem was. I also don't hate anyone, oh, maybe the ex, and then there is the pope, and his henchman George Pell, yep, I do think I have a list :)
Comment by Steven G-man on January 11, 2013 at 2:42am


Oh I know the issue, knew it from day one. When asked why we (the class) wanted to be nurses, EVERY single person said to help people. Let me be clear, helping people is fantastic, however, why would you want to take a job that pays 30 an hour to start with one of the highest burnout rates in any major profession and without the promise of a full time job (almost a total of half of nurses are labelled as part time) just to help people? Wanna help, go volunteer. Me? I wanted the money and title of RN. I wanted a good, well-paying job that I could help the people I feel need it the most (wanted to go into children's' mental health) which would allow me to provide for my family and live a comfortable life. Sadly, since what I said did not sound like a selfless act on par with Flo (what they called Florence Nightingale) I was already being singled out. Was always confused how a 150 year old thought on nursing has any affect today, but I digress.

Also, there is this mentality that a man, specifically a straight man, who wants to be a nurse has something wrong with him. Men are expected to do ALL the heavy lifting, to be able to run and give assistance to EVERY call bell and request from other nurses, that somehow men do not need a break to catch there breaths. While apparently doing all this and being mini supermen, every senior nurse keeps an eye out because a male nurse wannabe is a pervert just waiting to be unleashed. I have kept my mouth shut during times when the nurses talked about sexual matters and other such inappropriate subjects, because I know if I join in I will be in shite, and if I call them on it, I will be in shite. I went DAYS at placements not speaking because I know there are some who want to label males as perverts for a comment out of context or lazy for not living up to a superman role. Sadly, it is not just nurses on the floor, but ones that teach too who are like this.

Now, allow me to be clear, not every nurse is like this. I have run into some who were awesome. Nice, polite, kind, and understanding of how males are generally treated. There are many fantastic nurses out there, unfortunately my experiences and observations show that they are being drowned out or burning out from picking up the slack from the above mentioned nurses (male nursing students are supermen and other good nurses work to cover them. I have done more of a nurses job before while she sat there and read, only to give me dirty looks when a call bell went off and I was sitting to do charting).

These A-M are ruining many thing it seems, not just atheism.....

Comment by Suzanne Olson-Hyde on January 11, 2013 at 3:34am

Well, I don't get it - of course, going into a lot of different professions and it doesn't matter what it is, you do want to help, but in Australia, nurses go on organised protests for equal pay to the men, with the men marching with them. Women here expect a living wage, and I think there are a lot more single mothers in the nursing profession, are working full time, and have to keep the family. Times have changed, but society has not. I agree, want to help, go do Meals on Wheels, lots of charity work 'to help' is there for the asking.

I think this problem is huge, generally, especially when they are getting into teaching institutions, and the younger generation don't know or understand what feminism really is, they automatically think it is their 'right' not to be harassed, or that they can vote, or not get the sack when they marry. All hard fought for freedoms. These anti-feminists are doing harm to the average female, and the average feminists. They are looking after their own little patch, instead of what a true feminist is, fighting for the cause, equal pay for equal work, etc. If I am confused, and think they are shitheads, no wonder men, coming into contact with these people, dislike women. 

So, they like a male to be there, to do all the heavy lifting or to cover them when they are reading - but then chastize and bully. It doesn't matter what you did, you couldn't win, same with my bro.

He also, left his job, a job he loved, he can't work out what the agenda was, so gave up, when both professions need men. 

Comment by Cristynfaye on January 15, 2013 at 4:09am

The thing I'm really most confused about is the part about 'no fake jewelry'.  What does that even mean?  I remember going to bible camp as a teenager, and we weren't allowed to wear makeup or jewelry or dress in clothes that fit...are atheist conferences going to be like that now?  Does it mean no jewelry at all?  Are they afraid of like choking hazards, or bad fashion statements?  I seriously don't understand this.

Comment by Unseen on January 15, 2013 at 9:59am

@Suzanne Olson-Hyde

I wonder if the anti-male dynamics are much the same in other traditionally female professions such as elementary school teaching and nannying? Well, nannies aren't organized the way nurses and teacher have organizations. At least, I don't think there are any powerful nanny organizations.

Comment by Suzanne Olson-Hyde on January 16, 2013 at 4:08am
@ Unseen - elementary school teaching and nannying? I really don't know.

My thinking is, as soon as there is a hierarchy, there could well be problems, from the males and females, but for different reasons.

Even in a small group, with a leader, someone will try to take over, usurp or just bump off.

With males in power in a company, for instance, and he is married, he feels, that because he is so successful, it is his right to have more females, and can get into trouble, if he starts assuming this, with his female colleagues, aka sexual harassment.

But with women going up the ladder, they hate men, because they think the male is trying to usurp them, voila, my partner. The thought of taking over his boss' job had not entered his head, but it had hers. BUT when a woman is a CEO, as there are in Australia, she is usually just a front person, and if she makes big decisions against her male peers, she is a bitch, a dragon, she just needs a good bang.

In Australia, very few men in primary or elementary school, so I don't think it would be a problem there, nannies, yep, no hierarchy that I know off. Even in an Atheist group, I would not join an 'organisation' of Atheists, if there is a hierarchy, there could well be a problem. I have seen this in countless 'groups' of every persuasion.

With contentious business' such as coal, oil gas mining, cigarettes, the person to front the press here are usually women, trying to soften the blow, or so they think. Doesn't work :)


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