Comment by Ray R. on December 16, 2012 at 11:57pm

When Bill W . and Dr. Bob, ( along with a fundamentalist Christian pastor ,Frank Buchman , of the Oxford Christian Group ) , first started AA , Dr. Bob did not want to allow women to participate in it . He felt that female alcoholics were morally inferior to men , and were therefore irredeemable . Bill W . , however , saw that allowing women into the groups, would allow him a steady supply of emotionally vulnerable , psychologically fragile people whom he could take sexual advantage of , ( and did ) . A confluence of pathological misogyny , fundamentalist indoctrination , as well as fraud bordering on psychopathy , all had a hand in the foundation of AA . Is it any wonder it's success rate and rate of retention are so low ?

Comment by jared manley on December 17, 2012 at 12:04am

 I don't dispute that they are religious. Maybe you didn't read what I wrote. Perhaps you should blame some of this on the "south" I've been there and never want to go back. I know the chapter to the agnostics "what then created all of this?". I mentioned I was involved for 11 years... Maybe you didn't read what I wrote... That means chairing meetings being sponsored, sponsoring, cleaning toilets, making coffee and the like.

 People will have their interpretations. For the record If I had told anyone that I knew from AA I was thinking about becoming christian they would have talked me out of it. Again cultural.

 As I said before both Albert Einstein and Carl Sagan have made God/Creator references that WERE NOT about Deities. But maybe you didn't read that part. These words are up for interpretation and that means yours too. 

 All in all I'm saying to put it less nice is that your claims are simply your interpretation and I would say in accordance to my interpretation almost complete bullshit. However, for other very good reasons I say don't waste your life there.

 Others claim that its anti Deity. Some say it's cult like ( I tend to agree) others claim its anti christian, anti muslim, anti religion. How can it be when it just says "pick something". I think the fact is is that you all don't want to go to AA and I don't blame you.

 1) yup prayer that you can participate in or not. They are addressing whatever their "God" or "Higher Power" is. Does this mean it's a deity? If it is then how does it affect you. You also share a town where people pray, a state and a country. Are you planning on leaving these because of it?

2) Not all AA groups use the "Lords prayer". So that is what we call a blanket statement and even if they did we're still talking about a bunch of people who might even be praying to a door nob or an ashtray."

 4) It was a much different world when the Catholics instituted confession. It allowed them to keep tabs on the people of the church. I'm pretty to it's to get things off of your chest and learn that you are human and that others have done the same or worse. When I did 5 I found out that I had absolutely nothing to be ashamed of compared to the guy I told it too. Also if you do it right then you will notice a pattern in you behavior and if you have studied the big book it also gives you an outline of who  you might need to make amends to in the latter steps.

 It's obvious that it wasn't a healthy experience for you. I don't know what to blame: you, your group, your sponsor (if you actually had one), or the culture you live in but the things you are pointing to and exactly what you are saying are all wrong.

 AA is not necessary. AA is bullshit for the following reasons: It's time consuming. People that are there want you to be there all the time too so that they have something to do.  Even if you out grow it they still want you there. Even if you don't have a drinking problem that treat you as if you do. They are spiritual simpletons and diluted. They THINK they have a disease but there is no alcoholic DNA.

 Yes someone always approaches the newcomer after meetings. Your experience with one person is not empirical evidence as to how AA as a whole runs. 

 Don't go if you don't want to. In the mean time figure out how to reason. This will do you better than any 12 step program and you won't have to twist anything to get the response you need to justify your own actions from other people.

 For the record again. That place made me think and read. I kept thinking and readin and thinking and reading until I out grew it. It was how I stayed out of trouble in a sense. Not that I had made any to get there but after I did it was fucking study time. I had a safe place to read and think and I read and thought my way past all of that. 

Comment by Denise Kiser on December 17, 2012 at 12:14am

The big book flip flops quite a bit in the beginning it does say "the only requirement is a desire to quite drinking" it also gives reference to "a power greater than yourself"....in the beginning of the big book it does not sound extremely religious and defiantly sounds more tolerant but as the book progresses the person who is trying to recover has to believe in a god that micro manages all aspects of their life if not that person will not stay sober...the tricky part is this god can have any name buddah, jesus, yoda, etc. but in order to recover the person has to "turn over their will and their life to the care of God" ...now just because they did not give god a name does not mean the underlining religion is not present...in my opinion any ways....it is kinda like a bad sales technique you know saying you are getting one thing then after you sign up you get something different...I put into google every kind on name for a non religious support group and the search resulted in pages of treatment centers and AA...in order to find sos it seems you have to type the name in the search bar....

Comment by Denise Kiser on December 17, 2012 at 12:25am

I bought a time share once that reminds me of aa....I was 25 the sales women showed me and my ex husband all these really fabulous photos of this incredible time share condo on the beach....we bought....then our first trip to the condo we realized the place was a crap hole....the beginning of the big book paints a really fabulous picture of the program loving tolerant, in the beginning addiction is a physical illness as the book progresses alcoholism is attributed to a spiritual sickness only cured by god pray to god daily or drink and die....I was like woooooohhhhh hold up......wtf? where did the tolerance for all beliefs go?

Comment by jared manley on December 17, 2012 at 12:46am

Buddha as I said earlier is not a god. Maybe you didn't read that part.

 God doesn't have to be a deity as I said earlier. Maybe you didn't read that part.

 Don't turn your will (unless it's just getting shitfaced and doing the wrong thing) over to a non-deistic God. You can not drink.

 I'd say if a sales pitch is reaching millions its a good one. I might question the ethics but as "sales pitches" go... That is results.I put into google exactly what I suggested and found out about SOS VIA Penn and Teller mind you but I did.

 on that last bit "spiritual sickness only cured by god pray to god daily or drink and die.." again it COULD be a non deistic god but I know thats not what you want it to be. You want it to be a deistic God so that your atheistic senses can throw it out the window. Thats all fine but you can actually skip all of that and stop fucking drinking. Get a hobby. Put your passion into something that is worth it and live. You were blaming alcohol for your problems now its AA. What next will you blame? Knitting?

 You'd be surprised what kind of support group you can find if you aren't being impossible and neurotic.Even the stupidest of people know when you are being emotionally honest or dishonest.

 Why don't you get some self confidence? Why do you have to run your "I'm leaving AA" by us? You obviously weren't willing to watch Penn and Teller (2 awesome magician atheists) in order to find the results I found. I was only looking to prove me right too. Why don't you look to prove you right?

Comment by jared manley on December 17, 2012 at 1:28am

 I might also ask do you feel you are about to cave in to peer pressure? I live in the midwest. Kansas to be specific, home of the westboro  baptist church. I figured out a long time ago that being an individual (as even being an adult) means eating shit. This doesn't mean that I have to believe what they throw at me. It means that I can't possibly have time to refute everything they throw at me therefore I eat a lot of it. It's a bit maddening.

 Also I'd like to know Ramon Rego MD's sources on this subject. Not because I think he's wrong. Not because I want him to be wrong. Because I seek the truth. I want to know if he is really an "MD" too. If he can't provide reliable sources then I really could give two shits about what he says. I -for the most part -don't anyways because he has only mentioned things that would shy one away from that program (w/out giving sources) and He has given nothing that would help you unless Bill W. and Dr Bob are a mirror image of what is in AA today. Well, they are not. There could be instances but that is not empirical evidence that everyone in AA is like that.

 Learn to think, argue and reason. Don't believe just anything because it furthers your agenda, and don't twist things to further you agenda. That is known as a strawman argument. It's flimsy at best and it will get you nowhere. Are you a seeker of truth or a seeker of people to be on your side?

Comment by Denise Kiser on December 17, 2012 at 2:09am

man Jared 11 years they did a number on you, argumentative and you sound very angry....I am defiantly starting an SOS group.......Do you write so much to prevent people from being able to respond? I am just wondering bc I do not know where to start lol.... I did read, I did think, I twisted nothing, and I have no agenda besides not drinking....I am going to call your way of arguing "flooding" the definition will be- someone who writes enormous responses to statements in order to a) appear intelligent  or b) out of fear they will not stay in control of the debate.....thanks for your feed back defiantly contained some good stuff

Comment by Denise Kiser on December 17, 2012 at 2:16am

http://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/topics-in-brief/genetics-addi...   oh and they have not pinned down the exact gene yet but good old science is getting closer....they have found some biological differences between people who become addicted and those who do not......I did not twist this or interpret it in my own way I just read it.....the way it was printed...the black letters on the page and those little numbers and grafts and other science thingies....

Comment by kOrsan on December 17, 2012 at 2:19am

Thought you might enjoy this piece.

Comment by Denise Kiser on December 17, 2012 at 2:19am

I read about this one too but I am a women sooo the study was not about me...if I twisted the article and interpreted it in my own way I could put an imaginary w and o in front of the men word and that would make the article about me.....

Addiction and impulsivity have a genetic link in men, according to a new study.

The gene, a snippet of DNA called NRXN3, has previously been linked to nicotine dependence, as well as alcohol dependence, opiate addiction and obesity. The new research suggests a common denominator of impulsivity underlies all of these troubles.

"The other studies basically showed the NRXN3 seems to be associated with some addictions and with obesity," said study researcher Scott Stoltenberg, a psychologist at the University of Nebraska, Lincoln. But our study is really the first to flesh out the mechanism by looking at behavioral control, looking at impulsivity."

Behavior and DNA

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