So who or what created the universe?


Is there anyone who doesn't ask this question? If not, why not? I'm pretty confident that any thinker has pondered this. Hmmm... why is this such a concern of ours? Why is this question in our mind? Why were we not content with just being? You know, as in the earth was always here.

Well, regardless, we asked.

Science is now telling us that the universe came into existence when a primordial start of elemental condition started to expand. Which still begs the question, "where did that came from?" It's difficult to imagine nothing into something; it just doesn't make sense. We are always going to be asking, "where did that come from?"

Creationist on the other hand have decided a source. Whichever god they choose has just always been there. But just as the previous theory, there isn't quite a satisfaction. You can argue recursive creation for both, but then you are left with option 3: the universe has always been here.

But again, if you say that, why can't you say "God has always been here," or "the elements have always been there." 

So, we are trying to pinpoint this beginning and are using the same arguments on each other as if they are irrelevant to our own theory. 

There must have been something that started it all. Either the elements existed forever or a creator. So now we have to chose which we like better. 

Which do you find more logical: something/someone has always been, or nothing turning into something? 

Views: 1896

Tags: Big, bang, creation, origin, theory, universe

Comment by Michael on September 4, 2012 at 12:55pm

@Unseen,

Believe it are not, millitary experts from the US & the UK have been investigating. Listen to what they have to say.

Comment by Unseen on September 4, 2012 at 1:35pm

You say "been investigating," which means they haven't arrived at any conclusions or aren't able to say that the evidence is conclusive.

Comment by Dale Headley on September 4, 2012 at 4:04pm

Here is a personal anecdote that clearly points out the profound difference beween skepticism and gullibility.

Back in 1959, I and a friend were crossing the Nevada desert, heading for Las Vegas.  It was about 1:00 AM on a moonless and cloudless night - nothing but pitch black all around us.  All of a sudden, my friend got excited and pointed out a string of lights, seemingly flying in formation high in the sky to the right of my car.  My friend described them as aircraft, at very high altitude, flying at incredible speeds.  Whenever I got a chance (I was driving) I glanced up through my curved windshield.  I noticed that these “aircraft” appeared to be flying in perfect formation, in a straight line, one behind the other, with equal distances between them; and that, despite their apparent speed, always appeared at exactly the same point in the sky, relative to my car.  That immediately made me suspicious: that any kind of aircraft, earthbound or extraterrestrial, would be flying like that.  But my friend accepted, a priori, that they were aircraft, and that, since their speeds were so astounding, that they must be UFO’s.  I, on the other hand, began analyzing all the possibilities and testing them as a scientist would do.   

At some point, I considered some kind of reflection as possibly  being the cause of what (we thought) we were seeing.  Although I couldn’t see any place in the black night from where those lights might be emanating.   All of a sudden, my friend said “They disappeared!”   So I continued moving my hand and they reappeared, then they disappeared again.  It turned out that whenever I put my right hand down by the steering wheel the lights would disappear, then appear again when I moved my hand elsewhere.  At first, I thought there might be some kind of little lights of which I was unaware inside my car, but there weren’t.   So I kept looking around outside the car.  Then I saw it!  In the far distance on the LEFT side of my car there was a string of lights, like streetlights or some industrial installation.  These lights had been reflecting off the curve in the passenger side of my windshield, through my driver’s side window.  Because the night was so dark there were no other lights or anything else to provide depth perception; so the lights that appeared to be flying high overhead were merely tiny reflections only a foot or two away.

I have never forgotten that as an example of a couple of things: 1) We do not see with our eyes; we see with our brains.  2) Some people, like my friend (who believes in God), are prepared to accept as real the things they “want” to see, whether they be space aliens or gods.  People like me look for the MOST LIKELY explanations for “unidentified” phenomena, instead of automatically accepting the most desired one.  Applying Occam’s Razor, the simplest explanation is most likely to be the correct one. 

More than any experience I’ve ever had, this highlighted for me the difference in thought paradigms for religious people as opposed to skeptics.

People like Anna tend to set up belief systems based, not on observation or empirical evidence, but on wishful thinking.  Then they go through all kinds of logical contortions to justify their desired beliefs.   Whadda ya wanna bet?  Anna believes that earth is being visited by anthropic creatures from outer space.  We already know she believes in One, for sure.  

Comment by Anna Silva on September 4, 2012 at 6:26pm

Hello, everyone.
I did not mean to discount any evidence you have provided for you're beliefs. I've in fact taken a whole lot of it into consideration, and have been doing other research as well. See behind the computer screen, what you don't see, is that I am also questioning christians, christian scientist, and google. (yes, I did mean to suggest that I am questioning google) I would be doing a pretty crap job of discerning truth if every time you said something, I didn't question it's accuracy. I would be falling under the same fallacy of which you already perceive me as doing; simply believing what I am told. Although I have a really bad name on these forums, a lot of it is due to assumptions. I guess I feel as if i need to justify my actions since there is so much Anna slander. 
I'm not trying to pretend I am well versed on astrology or biology, I didn't even intend to delve too deeply into that area. I was just curious about the concept of "time" and "nothing," and wanted to see your opinion. I can only think of 3 people that actually answered my question, or attempted to discuss it they way I meant for it to be. I tried to stay away from questions about biblical beliefs and such, but I didn't do a good job. I didn't want this to be a religious debate, to an extent, I just wanted to talk logically about the concepts... Yeah, I did a poor job. I know.
I was hoping to discuss statements like, "I guess I have a problem with the whole idea of "something from nothing" Who says there was nothing? Who even knows what "nothing" is?"
Never did I mean to imply that God has to exist because... Although I probably would have made that statement eventually, but not in a way to say "boom pow you are wrong! in your face" but rather to get your thoughts on that as well. 
If you read through the pages you will see that I often disregarded the religious statements and tried to only focus on the ones relevant to my original question.
It's ok though, I understand why you think the way you do about me. 
I apologize for misusing your boards as it has been pointed out to me that this is not the place for that kind of discussion.

Comment by archaeopteryx on September 4, 2012 at 6:41pm

@Zia - RE: "This world has all types opinions."

Absolutely! I'm an atheist, but I read FAR more theist literature, than that which reflects my own thoughts, I just wanted you to know it was out there, in case you had an interest.

I don't mean to pry, and you're certainly not obligated to answer, but you mentioned you were an expatriate, living and working in Saudi Arabia - expatriate of where, Iraq? If so, is your family safe?

Comment by Unseen on September 4, 2012 at 6:55pm

@Anna Silva

I apologize for misusing your boards as it has been pointed out to me that this is not the place for that kind of discussion.

We're very tolerant here and enjoy discussing and even spirited arguing. It's just pointless to bring up a lot of mostly old-hat arguments with people who've been thinking about and arguing about this for, in some cases, a few decades.

I don't think anyone wants you to stay away, but some may find arguing with you pointless if all you're going to do is promote The God of the Gaps (what I call The God of the Leftovers).

Comment by archaeopteryx on September 4, 2012 at 7:12pm

@Anna Silva, the problem didn't originate with you. You have no idea how many times theists have come on this board, posing seemingly innocent question which, when answered, allows the commenter to yell, "Aha! GOTCHA!!!" - so when you came on the board with your innocent little face and innocent little questions, the first thought many, if not most of us had, was, "Here we go again --"

I think that had you made a version of the above speech at the outset, the reception would have recognizably different. You did not abuse the board by any means - I cause far more abuse by popping in and out of threads, like they're my own personal chatroom, than you ever could, yet somehow, TA survives.

But I must admit, and so must you if you'll go back and reread some of your own posts, that quite often, you appeared to be pushing your conversation partner to admit the possibility of a god, and you're just not going to find much of that here. Of course, all of the god and church talk certainly didn't lesson our suspicions of your motives.

Certainly none of us, that I know of, are astrophysicists, and even they don't have all of the answers, but they, and we, approach subject matters with a degree of evidence to back up what is said, not opinions. Even if that happens, it's usually prefaced with, "I think --" or "I believe --"

I'd like to see you stay and chat with us some more, just be advised that none of us are convertible.

Comment by archaeopteryx on September 4, 2012 at 7:15pm

"Astrology"??

My sign is a yellow triangle, reading, "Slippery when wet" --

Comment by Unseen on September 4, 2012 at 7:19pm

I'm an ophiuchus according to the recently revised zodiac. (more info)

Comment by archaeopteryx on September 4, 2012 at 7:47pm

What, they didn't have a sign for obnoxious?

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