Comment by archaeopteryx on September 1, 2012 at 4:31pm

Anna Silvaaaa - come out and plaaayyyyy --

Comment by Zia Dost Muhammad on September 1, 2012 at 5:08pm

@ Archaeopteryx-

Hope you're doing well. 

I am a bit tight on time these days and did not want to respond to you until I saw the video... 

In the first 18 minutes he talks about the expansion of the universe and that was interesting. Something that the Quran mentions as well:  "And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are (its) expander" [51:47]. Then he talks about 'nothingness' and explains what he means by that. He mentions that virtual particles are being created and destroyed at almost the same time, and this produces the fields which give the weight. He calls it 'nothingness'.  In other words it appears to us as nothing, but in reality there is something being created and destroyed almost instantly. So he is not talking about absolute nothingness.  'Nothingness' is a term he chose to describe that phase.  

He then gives his reasons why he believes the universe is flat and how it can come from 'nothingness' (his nothingness). He mentions that the total energy of a flat universe is zero and a universe can come into existence from 'nothingness' by quantum fluctuations... And quantum fluctuations is basically the spontaneous births and deaths of so-called "virtual particle" pairs (and I've explained above what that actually means).

And the renowned 'Scientific America' explains "Thus virtual particles are indeed real and have observable effects"

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=are-virtual-partic... 

So the matter is where it was. It does not explain the existence/creation of the universe  from  absolute nothingness. 

And by the way, I am a male and work in Saudi Arabia as an expatriate.

 

Comment by archaeopteryx on September 1, 2012 at 5:50pm

I'm fine, Zia, and I hope you are as well. First allow me to apologize for my error - in many languages of the world, first names that end in "a" are feminine, so I naturally assumed you were female - in fact, in my mind, I applauded your courage, as a Muslim female, coming online to discuss religion - I know another such person, who writes despite threats on her life. But you are male - so am I, not that there's anything wrong with that --

Secondly, though not relevant to this thread, the fact that you work in Saudi Arabia as an expatriate sounds like a fascinating story that, if you would care to share it, I would love to hear. Just because we are on opposite sides of the theological fence, shouldn't mean that we have to be enemies - there's already too much of that going on within the Judeo/Christian/Islamic world as it is - if you will click on my avatar, you will be taken to my page where, if you choose, you can "friend" me, after which we can send private messages without disrupting the thread.

Thirdly, I appreciate that you have taken the time to actually view the hour+ video, many wouldn't have. I stopped in the middle of what, for me, has been a busy day, to check my emails and saw your comment, but will admit that I haven't taken the time to check out the links you've provided. I will do that, as time permits, but until then, I can't, in good faith, comment on them.

In the interim, I suggest you read the comments I've written above, regarding the First Cause argument.

It appears we both have time constraints, so until you read my First Cause discussion, and I have time (this evening) to read your links, let me leave you with this, from a former Muslim:

You claim that the evidentiary miracle is present and available, namely, the Koran. You say: "Whoever denies it, let him produce a similar one." Indeed, we shall produce a thousand similar, from the works of rhetoricians, eloquent speakers and valiant poets, which are more appropriately phrased and state the issues more succinctly. They convey the meaning better and their rhymed prose is in better meter. ... By God what you say astonishes us! You are talking about a work which recounts ancient myths, and which at the same time is full of contradictions and does not contain any useful information or explanation. Then you say: “Produce something like it?!

by Abū Bakr Muhammad ibn Zakariyā al-Razi

Until this evening (my time) --

Comment by archaeopteryx on September 1, 2012 at 6:06pm

Actually, Zia, allow me to make a minor correction, al Razi was in fact a Muslim, but from what I can discover, highly disillusioned with the Quran.

Al Razi - 865 – 925 - was a Persian polymath, a prominent figure in Islamic Golden Age, physician, alchemist and chemist, philosopher, and scholar.

Numerous "firsts" in medical research, clinical care, and chemistry are attributed to him, including being the first to differentiate smallpox from measles, and the discovery of numerous compounds and chemicals including kerosene, among others.

Razi made fundamental and enduring contributions to the fields of medicine, alchemy, music, and philosophy, recorded in over 200 books and articles in various fields of science. He was well-versed in Ancient Persian, Greek and Ancient Indian medical knowledge and made numerous advances in medicine through own observations and discoveries.

Educated in music, mathematics, philosophy, and metaphysics, he chose medicine as his professional field. As a physician, he was an early proponent of experimental medicine and has been described as the father of pediatrics. He was also a pioneer of ophthalmology. He was among the first to use Humoralism to distinguish one contagious disease from another. He became chief physician of Rey and Baghdad hospitals.

As an alchemist, Razi is known for his study of sulfuric acid.

He traveled extensively, mostly in Persia. As a teacher in medicine, he attracted students of all disciplines and was said to be compassionate and devoted to the service of his patients, whether rich or poor.

Comment by archaeopteryx on September 1, 2012 at 6:50pm

@Zia

In reference to the "Purpose of Life" videos your first link recommended, I cannot concur - life has no purpose, it simply is - if we choose to have a purpose, we must create it ourselves, without the assistance of any supernatural being.

RE your next link, regarding virtual particles, I found this: "the Casimir effect, where forces between metal plates in empty space are modified by the presence of virtual particles." - having researched the Casimir effect, some time ago, I found that virtual particles can cause two metal plates, if placed sufficiently close together, to move in such a way as to come together, but I'm not clear as to how that relates either to the Krause video or our discussion.

With the above exception, involving virtual particles, ALL of your other many links go directly to the Islamic website entitled, "The Purpose of Life," and though interesting reading, since I don't recognize that life has a designated person, short of that which we bring to it, the material presented there is not something which I can accept as valid.

Comment by archaeopteryx on September 1, 2012 at 6:53pm

Could I suggest a TA site on which you might find at least some degree of common ground?

http://www.thinkatheist.com/group/egyptianatheists?xg_source=msg_we...

Comment by archaeopteryx on September 2, 2012 at 12:12am

It looks as though Anna Silva and Zia won't be joining us this evening --

Comment by Unseen on September 2, 2012 at 12:18am

Back to catechism, I guess.

Comment by archaeopteryx on September 2, 2012 at 12:48am

Isn't this Sabbath for some religions?

Comment by Michael on September 2, 2012 at 2:51am

"Cosmic theories are accepted or rejected (not true or false) based on their explanatory and predictive power. Yours, which is "God explains everything because he is, well, God" is just an attempted proof by definition (God is defined as the creator of the universe)."

Unseen your statement is not correct. In order for a theory to be tested it must be falsifiable.

This is a major tenant of critical thinking

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