Comment by Anna Silva on August 31, 2012 at 12:56am

@ Heather- I am sorry you feel the way you do. I am not sure how to explain myself any further.  I've said several times that I welcome other theories. Also, when I was given examples of theories, I made it known that to me they fell into the categories I had already posed, and I explained why I felt this way. Then I asked for clarity as to why it differentiated, and I have not seen a reply. If the only feedback I get is "you're wrong" or similar, it' not very useful for understanding. 

@ Unseen- 'lead me down the logical path that starts with "the universe was created by an infinite something" and leads to the conclusion that "it must be God."' Well, I can tell you how I came to my conclusion, but it has many pieces. It's really a big picture thang rather than an "aha" moment from one piece of evidence though. Also, this post never was a "this proves God is the creator" post. I legit want to know what others believe regarding different aspects of life. I just happened to post this question first and somehow people decided that I am the enemy. Just came here to learn and share :/

Comment by Zia Dost Muhammad on August 31, 2012 at 12:58am

@Anna Silva

I was glad to see that you are sincerely trying to logically reason things out and find the truth. 

Yes you're right, according to scientists, about 13.5 billion years ago small dense mass the size of a pin head exploded creating space, matter and time.

Imagine you heard a loud bang, and you asked ‘where did that sound come from?’ Would you be satisfied with the answer that it came from ‘nothing’ and it ‘just happened?’  No, you wouldn't be. 

Also if one says that the pinhead came by itself, then that contradicts the theory 'Energy can never be created nor destroyed, it can only change form'.

The only other possibility is that it has a source, and scientifically this is the only option possible. Nothing is created out of nothingness. 

We can conclude that this first cause must be powerful as it bought the whole universe into existence, and it must be intelligent as it caused the ‘laws of science’ which govern the universe. Also, this first cause must be timeless, spaceless and immaterial, because time, space and matter began at the ‘Big Bang’. Finally, since it is uncaused it must have always existed.

All of these attributes of the first cause make up the basic concept of God. God is the uncreated first cause of the universe.

@ Others

If someone is still not convinced, then athiests actually do not have any scientific backing to reject God. It is better to be an agnostic. 

Comment by archaeopteryx on August 31, 2012 at 1:06am

Miguelito, I'll make a deal with you - I'll look forward to watching your prophecy come to pass, if you'll hold your breath until it does --

Comment by archaeopteryx on August 31, 2012 at 1:08am

@Heather - RE: "from whom are you sensing hatred?" - Unseen, of course --

Comment by Heather Spoonheim on August 31, 2012 at 1:10am

@Anna

Well, let's start with the simplest of the alternatives I offered - an infinite regression of causes.  In such a scenario, everything that occurs has a cause and that cause is a 'thing', not 'nothing'.  At the same time, none of those causes is an 'eternal thing'.  So you have an infinite number of things/causes, going back infinitely.  You don't get something from nothing, and you don't have something that is eternal.  I'm not sure how much more simply I can explain it.

Comment by archaeopteryx on August 31, 2012 at 1:13am

@Anna Silva - RE: "somehow people decided that I am the enemy" I certainly don't believe you're anyone's enemy, but I'm waiting to learn that you've viewed the Krouse video before we can discuss the matter further --

Comment by Michael on August 31, 2012 at 1:14am

@ archaeopteryx, I hope you lived in Southern California and felt the hundreds of Earthquakes in the past few days and are aware of the new pestilence lurking in Yosemite National Park already claiming victims. Not the end of the age yet, but it keeps growing in intensity, year to year. The corner stone for the new Jewish Temple, Red Heifers and Priestly garments are being held in reserved in Jerusalem to build the the Temple of God that the Beast will eventually desecrate.

Comment by Zia Dost Muhammad on August 31, 2012 at 1:16am

@Heather,

Imagine an army sniper who has acquired his target but radios back to base to get permission to fire. The person at the base tells the sniper to hold on while they seek permission from someone else higher up in command. The person higher up seeks permission from someone even higher and if this goes on forever, will the sniper ever get to shoot the target?

The obvious answer is NO,  he would not fire.

The only way the sniper can shoot is if someone along the chain has the FINAL authority to give that command.

In the same way God created the universe, if we were then to ask who created God? And then ask who created the creator of God? and then who created that creator and so on and so on, then there would be no universe at all in the same way the sniper would not be able to shoot! This shows that the universe must have a creator who is UNCREATED – God.

Comment by archaeopteryx on August 31, 2012 at 1:21am

@Zia - Welcome!

RE: "Nothing is created out of nothingness" - clearly you could benefit from watching the Krouse video as well, located somewhere on this thread, you'll just have to look for it. Clearlyh, we can't discuss this issue further until you have, as none of us has the time to summarize it for you.

RE: "it must be intelligent as it caused the ‘laws of science’ which govern the universe" - there is no evidence that any form of intelligence was behind the laws of physics, they just do what they do, and we, after a few million years of living with them, finally began to figure out how they work - nothing magic involved.

Comment by Heather Spoonheim on August 31, 2012 at 1:27am

Zia - you show me a lepton that radios for permission to spin and I'll agree that there is merit to your argument.

The sniper takes the shot because he has identified the target he was tasked to kill.  He identified the target because his commanding officer gave him a dossier on that target.  The dossier came from the intelligence service.....the land dwelling tetrapod spent most of it's time on land because...the filaments of dark matter formed along a certain bias because....and on and on we go.  All of this has happened, yet it didn't take 14 billion years for me to grow to an age of 42.

By your logic I could not have been born because I would have had to wait for the earth to form which would have taken so long that my mother would have died.

You'll have to do much better than that, son, if you want to debate in the big leagues.

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