Comment by Arcus on December 19, 2011 at 12:21pm

"That is the distinction, for me between a Christian and secular nation."

For me the more important part than institutional purity is the separation of religion and politics. If you deem the US to be a secular country, what would you deem e.g. France to be?

Comment by Rob Klaers on December 19, 2011 at 4:27pm

@Arcus..The reason I quote the past is that It is relevant to the discussion. In order for the U.S. to be Christian Nation in the strictest sense would mean it would need to have been founded on Christian values. It was not. It was founded on a belief on higher power. That is not the same as a belief in Christ as the son of God which is the the main tenant of Christianity. After all it is called Christianity for a reason. 

Now someone mentioned that the reference to the Treaty of Tripoli wasn't relevant because a treaty doesn't apply to local laws. That would be correct. It doesn't apply to local level laws, but it does apply to Federal level ones which supersede local laws.Now in regards to the Treaty of Tripoli, I quoted it because Article 11 not only reinforces the 1st Amendment in regards to separation of Church and State in the U.S. but also was to show that the treaty was between to sovereign nations and not two religious nations. I believe the tenants of that article are as relevant now as they were then. Basically, that we are not, nor have we ever been a 'Christian Nation' as much as some would like to have us believe. 

Comment by Ron V on December 19, 2011 at 10:14pm

@ John Kelly

If you look carefully at the history of prayer at the Constitutional Convention, it was a matter raised just before the 4th of July (more than a month after the Convention convened) and it was not even voted on.  They convened, said prayers for the 4th of July celebration, then resumed the Convention with prayers after the 4th.

Regardless, we could argue endlessly about whether they were Christians, deists, etc.  It is irrelevant.  The reality is, if they were alive today and had the scientific knowledge we have today (age of earth, relativity, etc.) I think most would be agnostic, ignostic, or flat out atheists in the public square.

The reality is the Constitution and Bill of Rights were written the way they were specifically to keep government out of religion, religion out of government, and minorities protected from the "tyranny of the majority." 

~76% of Americans claim to associate themselves with Christianity (according to the Pew Research Forum).  In this respect, America is a country of a Christian majority- but thankfully, we are not a Christian theocracy (at least officially, although they have been desecrating the Constitution with In God We Trust, Under God, etc.  Seriously, in which "god" do we trust and who exactly is "we."  Does anyone really trust an imaginary friend will pay their bills and put food on their tables anymore?

Comment by Ron V on December 19, 2011 at 10:45pm

" In order for the U.S. to be Christian Nation in the strictest sense would mean it would need to have been founded on Christian values. It was not."

That is true.  But we may have a difference in perspective here.

What, specifically, are Christian values? As far as I know, there is not one single "value" that is uniquely Christian- all these so-called "values" were borrowed - just as all of the mythology and other beliefs, superstitions, idolatry, holidays, magical thinking, etc.  I cringe whenever I hear the term "Christian values"- it has no real meaning for me other than a blind acceptance of what parents, the Christian community, or some preacher sells as "Christian." 

Comment by John Kelly on December 19, 2011 at 11:40pm

Ron, I would venture to say most would be atheist.  However that is not the way history went, and that is not what was made into law.  The constitution was not written to keep government ou of religion and vice versa.  Obvious reality should conclude that interpretation to be ludicrous.  If it was, there would be no local religious observance accepted after it was drafted. However, the cold hard facts are that religious observance was a regular part of the fledgling government, and the establishment clause specifically only pertains to congressional law.  It mentions no other branches of government or state government.

The just and fair way to make such a drastic change is by obtaining it through a legitimate amendment.  A better solution would be to allow a little variety.

This is not a Christian nation, but only by poor interpretation of the constitution can it be a nation which has no tolerance for public religious observation.  It is not rational to interpret the establishment clause beyond its original intent.  That is what you do with a holy book, not a law.  If a new law is needed you make a new one, with approval of a 3/4 majority in congress, just like the law itself says.

In that sense, the total secularism we seek to further enforce is stolen.  In that sense it becomes a form of oppression because it was never freely given.

Comment by John Kelly on December 19, 2011 at 11:48pm

I should further add that I understand what you are saying about "secularism is the inevitable spirit of the ideals of the constitution". 

However, the way the constitution was set up, when it becomes evident that the constitution needs to address something in order to preserve the integrity of what it stands for, we make an amendment.  What we did instead was apply a law that doesn't directly address the situation which was written for a different purpose without a vote.  How is that remotely fair?

Comment by Gaytor on December 20, 2011 at 12:06am

Christian Values can be seen in many ways. People that have used the Bible historically to oppress people. Today it's gays. It used to be interracial marriage. It was slavery and that was cool because the Bible said so. Even Jesus advocated for slaves to accept their fate, so how could it be wrong?

Christian values include being anti-abortion. While it's a fallacy to note that it's in the Bible, Christians believe that life begins at conception. Is there carry over to general population and even Atheists? Sure. but the basis for being anti-abortion is by-in-large a Christian position. At the same time being anti-euthanasia is a Christian value because you are subverting God's will as well as disrespecting the sanctity of life from the earliest moment to the last.

Christian Values would include being anti-science when it conflicts with the teachings of the Bible. Not allowing the teaching of evolution or pushing for teaching Creation are examples.

Prohibition of Alcohol or other drugs was at the behest of Christians due to the barbaric behaviors of society that were not suitable for Christian society. Think Sodom and Gomorrah.

So now that we have that laid out, It's clear that we have rejected these principles in popularity and legally.

57% of Americans support abortion. Poll

75% of Americans support Euthanasia. Poll

We've rejected creationism in our schools over and over.

We are passing 50% support for repeal of prohibition of Marijuana. Look out, my wife will be turned into a pillar of salt!

We consistently reject Christianity in the public square and in the courts. You can be so disturbed by in God We Trust, but this pales in comparison to teaching Intelligent Design. To banning abortion. To Slavery. To Prohibition. Look at how fast we ran from the idea of Sarah Palin being a heartbeat away from being president. We only have to let Rick Perry speak and society rejects him. So to those of you making the bald claim that this is a theocracy, I ask you to give examples of the US acting in a religious manner. What laws have we passed that scream theocracy? If in God We Trust (not directed at anyone specific) is your example of a theocracy, your bar is more than a tad low.

Comment by Becca on December 20, 2011 at 1:31am

Are we a Christian nation?

We are a nation with a majority of people who identify as Christian but that does not a Christian nation make. We are supposed to be a secular nation and for the most part are a secular nation. Those who would like the US to be a Christian nation are in my opinion scary as all living hell and should not be allowed anywhere near any elected office or children. Hopefully we will continue the trend of shedding religion... I think we will be all the better for it.

Comment by John Kelly on December 20, 2011 at 1:51am

Gaytor, Nobody here has said that the USA is a theocracy.  Why are you arguing this so vehemently as if someone has made the claim?

Comment by Gaytor on December 20, 2011 at 8:40am

Vehemently? I didn't write it as if I were angry. If It comes across that way, I apologize.

The U.S. is slightly more secular than Iran.

from my perspective, we live in a most barbaric time where jingoistic allegiance to orthodoxy absolutely dominates the public square

Others are suggesting that we act as a theocracy. If you cruise through other discussions on this you'll find it all over the place here at TA. You'll find people conflating speeches by Pat Robertson as representative of the public square. I'm saying that it isn't. The indignity with which Atheists react to the Pledge denies the gains that we have made. At some point, we must shrug our shoulders and recognize that we can't win all of the battles. But the war is clearly won. We seem to always end up in these debates about he said in 1758 versus this guy's he said in 1757 and feel credibility. All we have to do is look around at our modern world. Why care about Madison, what are we today is the real claim that we should be putting out there to quash the debate here and in other places. 

Comment

• ‹ Previous
• 1
• 2
• 3
• 4
• Next ›
• Page