Comment by Dale Headley on August 6, 2012 at 4:41pm

The problem with trying to deal with anti-choice folks is to understand that, despite what they claim, they DO NOT oppose abortion because of compassion, or for the sanctity of life.  Their real agenda is to impose the biblical imperative that men are the masters of women.  They cannot stand the idea that a woman’s choice should ever supersede a man’s.  In the early days of America, they imposed their will by calling recalcitrant women witches and burning them at the stake.  Today, they kill their doctors, instead.  But there really is no difference.  "Right To Life" adherents are simply updated versions of the Puritans.

Comment by Unseen on August 6, 2012 at 8:01pm

Oh, Dale, you have really swallowed that old school feminist Andrea Dworkin horseshit hook, line, and sinker, haven't you? Most modern feminists don't even buy that line about Christians. I'm an atheist but I grew up in Christendom and never once did I hear anyone enunciate anything like that. Where do you think those thoughts are expessed? Somewhere in the back room after the women have been sent out? Get real! We have actual disputes with Christians without inventing some that don't pass the giggle test.

Comment by Dale Headley on August 7, 2012 at 3:17am

Unseen:  Let’s start with the fact that women are hardly ever mentioned for much of the Bible, especially in the Old Testament.  And let us continue with the “Promise Keepers.”  They are a very large group of anti-abortion Christian American men who do not allow participation by women in their activities and are explicit that women should be seen and not heard.  Then there are the denominations, such as my Mormon neighbor, who are insistent that women are to be the followers and baby-makers, not the leaders.   

If anti-choice groups were really all about life, why don’t they ever get stirred up about working to make life better for young childen?  Because they don’t care about the women and their children.  And why is it that they oppose abortion, even to save the life of the mother AND the baby?  But they will resort to physical threats and even the murder of abortion doctors and their employees rather than concede that a woman owns her own body.  And why don’t they demand an end to the creation and termination of hundreds of thousands of embryos in in vitro ferilization?  If, as they say they believe, life begins at conception, then all these unused embryos that are thrown in the garbage are murder.  But they don’t say a thing about that.  Why?  Because they are lying when they say it’s about life.  It’s all about men dominating the lives of women, as it is preached in their male-centric Holy Book.  Yahweh said that women are concubines, and slaves, and compliant, nameless wives; and that’s what these people want them to always be. 

If life begins at conception (a point I won’t argue), it is still only a potential human person.  Likewise, a sperm is a potential human life; so why don’t they make it illegal for men to masturbate?  That is mass murder, is it not?  But they would never say that because it’s something MEN do; and men do not believe they should be told what to do with their bodies.

And OF COURSE you don’t hear these woman-haters “enunciate” their misogyny.  They’re not stupid; they know that if they admitted what they really think, most Americans would be repulsed.  So they PRETEND that they give a damn about the sanctity of life.  They don’t!

Notify the police.  I am a murderer.  In fact, I am a mass murderer.  A couple of times a week, I slaughter hundreds of thousands of potential human beings called sperm.  I’m sure that the pro-life people will want to punish me for this, right?  Wrong.  I am a MAN, and I have a right to make decisions about my own body.  Women?  Not so much.

Personally, I abhor abortion.  I would plead with my wife not to do it, were she to want one.  But I do NOT believe I have any right to dictate what she does with her body.  Many Christians - men AND women - think they do.  EVEN IF THE SECULAR LAW SAYS THEY DON'T!  

By the way, to the extent that SOME of them may be focused on saving unborn lives, why aren’t they marching on corporate farms where animals are tortured and killed by the millions?  Because, to them, only human lives count, because only humans are formed in the image of their God.   I am a vegetarian.  One of the reasons for that is that I don’t follow the Bible.  I follow my own compassion for ALL life, to the degree to which I am capable.   

I don’t know what God has to say about abortion, specifically.

Comment by Rob the Ridiculous on August 7, 2012 at 5:28am

Yeah, those special backroom meetings...

I always stay as long as possible at atheist/secular events, but I'm still not invited for baby eating....

Comment by archaeopteryx on August 7, 2012 at 10:26am

The biggest problem I see with your argument Dale, is that you generalize too much - for example, by your own admission, you abhor abortion, as do I, but you and I are atheists, and somewhere, sometime, someone decided that all atheists must share traits in common.

Well we don't, we're individuals, and except for the sheeple, who agree with everything in order to not be left out of the loop, we bring to the atheist table an entire gamut of differing ideas and opinions, and in my mind, that's healthy. Likewise, IMO, one cannot say, "All Christians, etc., etc., (and yes, Unseen,) ect."

I am certainly no misogynist, as any woman with whom I have ever come in contact could tell you, but I believe in equal rights and responsibilities for both sexes, and consequently - and I really don't want to start anything with Heather or Cara again - I believe a man has as much right to weigh in on the fate of his progeny as a woman. Yes, it's the woman who has to carry the child to term, but neither the baby/fetus nor I, share any responsibility for the fact that our indoor plumbing is different. If I could truly share a pregnancy, I'm not saying I'd like it, but I would certainly do it.

My reasoning has nothing to do with anything the Bible says - I personally believe the Bible to be the biggest practical joke ever to be perpetrated upon Humankind, with Little George Bush coming in as a close second.

(Oh, and Rob, I've been meaning to tell you - it's your table manners --)

Comment by Unseen on August 7, 2012 at 11:47am

@Dale

Unseen:  Let’s start with the fact that women are hardly ever mentioned for much of the Bible, especially in the Old Testament.  And let us continue with the “Promise Keepers.”  They are a very large group of anti-abortion Christian American men who do not allow participation by women in their activities and are explicit that women should be seen and not heard.  Then there are the denominations, such as my Mormon neighbor, who are insistent that women are to be the followers and baby-makers, not the leaders.  

Well, the Bible wasn't written yesterday. It was written 2000 years ago, so whatever they thought then is not what most men think today. With the Promise Keepers, you're committing the fallacy of assuming they don't really believe what they do, but instead do it in order to keep women barefoot and in the kitchen. Keeping commitments is a good thing, not a bad thing. Demonizing the enemy is common in any conflict, but it's nonproductive.

If anti-choice groups were really all about life, why don’t they ever get stirred up about working to make life better for young childen?  Because they don’t care about the women and their children.  And why is it that they oppose abortion, even to save the life of the mother AND the baby?  But they will resort to physical threats and even the murder of abortion doctors and their employees rather than concede that a woman owns her own body.  And why don’t they demand an end to the creation and termination of hundreds of thousands of embryos in in vitro ferilization?  If, as they say they believe, life begins at conception, then all these unused embryos that are thrown in the garbage are murder.  But they don’t say a thing about that.  Why?  Because they are lying when they say it’s about life.  It’s all about men dominating the lives of women, as it is preached in their male-centric Holy Book.  Yahweh said that women are concubines, and slaves, and compliant, nameless wives; and that’s what these people want them to always be.

This is the fallacy of composition. You recognize the misdeeds or erroneous thinking of some, but then you go on to attribute their views to the group as a whole. This is what people do when they equate all terrorists with the views of Al Quaeda. I grew up with Christians. The men as a rule love their wives and do not hate women in general. They believe a religion that has a certain idea of what a marriage and family should be like, that is all they are guilty of, with the exception of a very few nut jobs. Your bigotry is showing through.


If life begins at conception (a point I won’t argue), it is still only a potential human person.  Likewise, a sperm is a potential human life; so why don’t they make it illegal for men to masturbate?  That is mass murder, is it not?  But they would never say that because it’s something MEN do; and men do not believe they should be told what to do with their bodies.

Oh, come on. Masturbation (male or female) happens before conception. There's no practical way to conceive while masturbating.

And OF COURSE you don’t hear these woman-haters “enunciate” their misogyny.  They’re not stupid; they know that if they admitted what they really think, most Americans would be repulsed.  So they PRETEND that they give a damn about the sanctity of life.  They don’t!

No, apparently it's a silent conspiracy that they don't talk about even among themselves. That really stretches incredulity beyond the breaking point. It's just too absurd to even consider.

Comment by Unseen on August 7, 2012 at 11:48am

Notify the police.  I am a murderer.  In fact, I am a mass murderer.  A couple of times a week, I slaughter hundreds of thousands of potential human beings called sperm.  I’m sure that the pro-life people will want to punish me for this, right?  Wrong.  I am a MAN, and I have a right to make decisions about my own body.  Women?  Not so much.

Just a couple times a week?

Personally, I abhor abortion.  I would plead with my wife not to do it, were she to want one.  But I do NOT believe I have any right to dictate what she does with her body.  Many Christians - men AND women - think they do.  EVEN IF THE SECULAR LAW SAYS THEY DON'T!  

Pleading can be construed as bullying. "Many" is not "all" or even "most." Catholics practice abortion all the time, and I'm sure much of the time it's with the explicit or tacit consent of their Christian husbands. Lots of Protestant women practice abortion, too, and not always in secrecy from their husbands. In fact, I'm sure it's with the knowledge of their husbands. Not all Christians interpret the Bible as the nut jobs do. In fact, I bet most don't.

By the way, to the extent that SOME of them may be focused on saving unborn lives, why aren’t they marching on corporate farms where animals are tortured and killed by the millions?  Because, to them, only human lives count, because only humans are formed in the image of their God.   I am a vegetarian.  One of the reasons for that is that I don’t follow the Bible.  I follow my own compassion for ALL life, to the degree to which I am capable.   

Leave it to the vege folks to find a way to shoehorn in an animal rights argument. I don't suppose you've noticed that there isn't all that much support for animal rights even here, among the atheists. Maybe we're closet Christians(?).

I don’t know what God has to say about abortion, specifically.

Nobody does. Not even Christians, because it isn't addressed specifically in the Bible. The animosity toward abortion is based on speculative interpretation, not actual scripture.

Comment by Grady Jean on August 7, 2012 at 12:23pm

I just murdered millions of potential proto-people while reading this. >:D

Comment by Unseen on August 7, 2012 at 4:23pm

@Rob

Babies. Give 'em a try. Great grilled on a spit with a honey-lime glaze. Or, boiled like a lobster.

Comment by Unseen on August 7, 2012 at 4:30pm

@archaeopteryx


I am certainly no misogynist, as any woman with whom I have ever come in contact could tell you

Interesting that you used "could" (might be able to) instead of "would" (could be relied upon to). Whence the doubt?

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