Comment by Cara Coleen on November 2, 2013 at 10:13pm

No. I think it still sounds patronizing, and not remotely "ok and fair." Why does the husband have to be the leader, or the person to defer to? Sometimes (many times) women are more responsible or resourceful than their male counterparts. It's best that each partner works within their strengths, whatever they may be, and not shove themselves into arbitrary gender roles. A person isn't a better leader simply because they're equipped with a dick.

Comment by Strega on November 2, 2013 at 10:32pm

@ ASJ - Why shouldn't husbands submit to their wives?  Who decided it would be the wives that were to do all the submitting?  Why does anyone have to be told to submit?

Comment by Cara Coleen on November 2, 2013 at 11:38pm

It's not a "feminist" perspective; it's a human perspective. When two people live together, they should have mutual respect. You're assuming the "sensible partner" is a man based on nothing but his gender. If two people can't agree, it's not any smarter to just go with one person's opinion because of their genitalia. It's not sensible to say, "Hey, when we can't agree, we'll just go with what you think because your penis qualifies you to make important decisions."

It would be so much easier to just say "Have mutual respect for each other and listen to the other's opinion. It's a partnership and both people have thoughts to contribute and talents to bring to the table. If you can't agree, compromise."

My boyfriend and I have mutual respect for one another. We're not in a gender-battle. We present our arguments based on our own research (because, yes, we take an active role in decision-making and actually research things) and one or the other eventually gives in, or admits they were wrong. We're pretty compatible so we have yet to disagree totally on anything.

Frankly, I think it's just lazy when women just defer to their husbands in important decision-making situations. I suppose, in those situations, it is more sensible to allow the person that actually thinks to make decisions. But I'm not intellectually lazy.

Comment by Belle Rose on November 3, 2013 at 12:24am
As it is ASJ men have the ability to overpower women so easily. Be it physically, sexually, etc...If you add to the already inevitable physical disadvantage with an attitude of "entitlement" in thinking that a man is "the final say" many women will not challenge them unless they feel comfortable expressing their point of view. Many men do not even allow a woman to have a say in certain decisions. This is how abuse starts. This passage has been used by the church in modern times to try to make women feel "less" but equal and it's really a bunch of mind games. There is no equality in this passage no matter how you sugar coat it. There is no way to make it "OK" because it's not OK. It is another chip on the man's shoulder to carry around to use as a power/control tactic against a woman. Maybe not all men DO just because they CAN, but I would argue that most men if not brought up by their mothers/fathers to view women as equals, or if they do not figure it out through life experience, ultimately abuse this passage and therefore the very women they are supposed to "cherish."
Comment by Belle Rose on November 3, 2013 at 2:37am
ASJ: Let me give you a real world example. Let's say you and your wife are in the car. You are hot and she is cold. Do you turn on the air conditioning or the heater? How do you reach your "decision?"

This happens ALL the time. At least it did in my marriage. My husband insisted on turning on the air conditioning and told me to put my jacket on. I submitted to him. Every time. Because I used to believe in this passage whole heartedly. I never told him "no."

I was a submissive wife like you wouldn't believe and he walked all over me. I'm not the exception. I was a Christian at the time. Looking for answers within the Christian church on what to do when your husband treats you poorly...you get the same pat answer....submit to him.....
Comment by Belle Rose on November 3, 2013 at 2:26am
Oops! I'm so sorry ASJ I just realized who you are and for some reason I thought you were male, LOL!!!! Yaay!!!!!! Anyway my point still stands ;)
Comment by Belle Rose on November 3, 2013 at 2:44am
The church will teach and insist that this verse does not make women inferior while simultaneously throwing it in a woman's face when she tries to seek respect and fairness from her husband.
Comment by Reg The Fronkey Farmer on November 3, 2013 at 5:02am

What would Jesus do? I suppose he would do what it says in Ephesians 5:22-24. After all its his word.

Comment by kOrsan on November 3, 2013 at 6:20am

What would Jesus do? He'd probably point out the hidden no-true-scotsman when you mumble "oh well that's unchristian."

Comment by Ed on November 3, 2013 at 7:52am

Why do theists have to rely on an ancient text to determine the correct way to interact with their partner? You treat your better half as an equal, you learn to compromise when appropriate, but most importantly, you work as a team player. Almost all religions place the "dick" on a superiority pedestal. And it takes a shallow man to take advantage of it.

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