Comment by Atheist Exile on November 3, 2013 at 9:19am

The Bible definitely, by example, subjugates women. But it's not as bad as it once was before Christianity enjoyed some reforms. The Quran and Islam, on the other hand, are unreformed. In the modern world, Islam takes the prize for male dominance / female subjugation.

Comment by Diane on November 3, 2013 at 9:23am

Ironically, I would defer to a husband who has earned my respect and trust, but not because a book tells me to do it, and not just because he's a male.  

I am a single parent - I would love to defer to somebody once in a while.  As it is I have to make all the decisions, earn all the money, provide all the discipline, etc.  I have certainly earned my own respect and defer to myself often.  I am never off the hook though.  

Comment by Strega on November 3, 2013 at 10:44am

What would Jesus do? 

Isn't that a redundant question?  It would appear from the teachings of the church, that Jesus never got married and never had to consider how a marriage might work. Asking what Jesus would do is like asking the Pope for an opinion on sexual positions.  They are totally unqualified to opine on the subject matter.

Comment by SteveInCO on November 3, 2013 at 11:35am

Oh, but Strega, not having sex IS a sexual position, clearly.   That's why atheism is a religion.

/sarcasm

Comment by Dr. Bob on November 3, 2013 at 12:48pm

I will renew my objection that too many atheists are more biblical literalists than the average fundamentalist.   Even most fundamentalists won't take passages like this so far out of context.

There's a delightful passage from the old Sorkin show The West Wing which really speaks to the whole chapter in Ephesians to which the original poster refers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBqUZQ2nTbA

Enjoy.

-------

Asking what Jesus would do is like asking the Pope for an opinion on sexual positions.  They are totally unqualified to opine on the subject matter.

I'm wondering if folks really think this is a rational position to take? 

If a person has cancer, which should they go to... the physician who has not himself had cancer but who has seen and helped many cancer patients?  Or should they go to a person who has cancer, but is not a physician?   If someone wants to build a yacht, which should they go to, the naval architect and boat builder who might not himself have a yacht, or some other yacht owner?

The same applies in all kinds of other circumstances.  For sympathy and emotional support, we might turn to those who have been in the same circumstances, but for real help we turn to those with expertise.    If we're rational.  Now, we can argue whether a priest has expertise, though many I've known have had degrees in counseling psychology.  The point is just that this claim, on its face, is not logically sound.

Comment by SteveInCO on November 3, 2013 at 1:22pm

Asking what Jesus would do is like asking the Pope for an opinion on sexual positions.  They are totally unqualified to opine on the subject matter.

I'm wondering if folks really think this is a rational position to take? 

If a person has cancer, which should they go to... the physician who has not himself had cancer but who has seen and helped many cancer patients?  Or should they go to a person who has cancer, but is not a physician?   If someone wants to build a yacht, which should they go to, the naval architect and boat builder who might not himself have a yacht, or some other yacht owner?

The stupid here, it hurts.

Some things you have to experience to opine on intelligently.  Treating cancer is not one of them, sexual positions are.

Even the pope knows better than to stick his face into a discussion on sexual positions, so why do YOU think he's qualified?

Comment by Cara Coleen on November 3, 2013 at 1:32pm

Euphemize the verse all you like... it's not saying for wives to be loyal to their husbands; it's not saying to have mutual respect. You can be loyal to someone without being obedient. To give someone the decision-making power simply because of their gender is not sensible. It just isn't.

The fact that what you and your husband do works for you is fantastic... for you. However, the fact that you have "enough to deal with" is a consequence of you accepting society's, or the Bible's, arbitrary role for you as a woman. You could share the child-rearing responsibilities more equally so you wouldn't be so overburdened that you feel making a decision is just too much to ask. You are not incapable of making big decisions. Your husband isn't more well-suited for it. If you've both agreed it's "easier" the way you have it arranged, great! It really is fantastic this system works for your family.

But the model shouldn't be pushed on people as "the best" model. Many women like to work outside the home, or can come up with more creative solutions for problems than their husbands could. Some men would prefer to stay home with the kids... even if this is the exception in our culture. Some men would rather their wife make the big decisions. Some partners have an equal say.

I've been with my boyfriend going on five years now, so it's not just some high school romance. We're not married because we're not traditionalists. People may not take our titles/relationship seriously, but we are quite serious... and we're doing much, much more than just surviving or "making it". Our system works exceedingly well for us, and we're becoming quite successful as a result of it. We utilize both of our talents to get the best possible results. If we settled for society's roles for ourselves, our lives would be mediocre at best... but I don't want mediocre. I want incredible. And the best way to achieve what we want to achieve is by refusing to let Bronze-age books tell us what's best... because times have changed, and women are individuals with invaluable talents.

I'm happy you're doing what fulfills you. The message in Ephesians chaffs me because it doesn't speak to my personality, my talents, or my desires. It is patronizing to me, and it certainly doesn't take into consideration individuality. It is too simplistic and, frankly, rather insulting. I am confident in my abilities and I won't just "stand down" because it's supposedly easier.

Comment by Dr. Bob on November 3, 2013 at 1:34pm

@SteveinCO, LOL!   I will give you sexual positions (though it is an amusing version of the out-of-context literalism that atheists seem to enjoy as much as fundamentalists).

I believe @Strega was actually talking about "how a marriage might work", and the pope's sexual positions was an amusing joke, rather than fundamental writ.

Anyway, it was a side comment.  Back to Ephesians.  Be subject to one another, out of reverence for Christ.

Comment by Strega on November 3, 2013 at 2:02pm

Actually it was the "What would Jesus do?" element.  Not what he might recommend.  As far as Jesus 'doing' is concerned, he never got married (unless you think Dan Brown's Da Vinci code had a smidgeon of truth in it - ha!).  To ask what the actions of someone would be in a given long term situation when that person was never in such a situation or even in a parallel or similar one seems pointless. 

Comment by Belle Rose on November 3, 2013 at 2:05pm
@Diane: DITTO!!!

And ironically I'm not against still being somewhat submissive, more so than the average Atheist woman in a loving trusting nurturing relationship. But like you said Diane, the man would have earned my FULL respect. I do think there's something to be said for allowing a man to feel like a man...and most men like to feel respected....all that being said I still don't like this verse, lol!.....I don't know when I read what I just wrote back to myself I think I'm still entwined in this mentality...it's a hard mentality to break! Even when you know it's wrong.

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