Comment by SteveInCO on April 26, 2012 at 9:41pm

They both state that rights exist and that all governments do is recognize them.  And the constitution doesn't reference god (except "In the Year of Our Lord")

Comment by Unseen on April 26, 2012 at 9:58pm

I don't dispute that The Founders believed that rights exist. They're simply wrong in that regard. There is no EVIDENCE that rights exist in any metaphysical or cosmic sense. Religious people get to do that. Atheists don't.

I do stand corrected regarding The Constitution, and while that is good to know, it really doesn't affect my arguments in any way.

Comment by SteveInCO on April 26, 2012 at 10:18pm

OK.  Well like I said, I will work on that one.  Can't possibly explain it off the fly; but I do believe rights are derivable from the metaphysical nature of man.

Comment by Unseen on April 26, 2012 at 10:26pm

@SteveInCO "Frankly the notion that rights are arbitrary and purely whateverthehell the local government wants them to be is scary to me."

Avoiding scary ideas (like death) is what gives us religion, isn't it? Facing up to scary ideas should be the project of an atheist.

Comment by SteveInCO on April 26, 2012 at 10:42pm

@Unseen...  It's just that I have found in the past that those who assert that rights are arbitrary or created by governments are almost always just interested in violating them.

Comment by Hank Hell on April 26, 2012 at 11:14pm

Culture is a bad concept, it's just one more mechanism for subverting the will of the individual. Muslims want the "freedom" to conduct their culture as they see fit, but what about the freedoms of the individuals subjected to that cultures beleifs? Real freedom only exists on the individual level, the herd mentality will always be one of opression.

Comment by Unseen on April 26, 2012 at 11:49pm

@SteveInCO "It's just that I have found in the past that those who assert that rights are arbitrary or created by governments are almost always just interested in violating them."

And yet, that in no way proves that rights have an objective, metaphysical, or cosmic basis.

Comment by Unseen on April 26, 2012 at 11:55pm

@Hank Hell "Culture is a bad concept, it's just one more mechanism for subverting the will of the individual."

Oh...like some evil person or group sat down and said, "Let's subvert the will of the individual." Culture is a child of the people as much as vice versa.

"Muslims want the "freedom" to conduct their culture as they see fit, but what about the freedoms of the individuals subjected to that cultures beliefs? Real freedom only exists on the individual level, the herd mentality will always be one of oppression."

I agree with Sartre. We are "condemned to freedom." We ALWAYS have the option, sometimes unpleasant or even fatal, to do as we please. To think otherwise is an act of bad faith.

Comment by Deborah Moreno on April 27, 2012 at 12:03am

Human rights should not be based on political, cultural or gender ideals. Isn't being human enough? I remember not so long ago, (early eightys), in the good old US of A after being beaten by my husband, the cops left me standing on the street with nowhere to go and no action taken against him. I have to admit it was Phx and an old cop. However, our cultuer hasn't been so different until recently. Women fought for change, and women should help other women by speaking out and trying to educate. Even those like Unseen who compares womens issues to what kind of meat is ok to eat. 

 

 

 

Comment by Unseen on April 27, 2012 at 12:12am

@Deborah Moreno "Human rights should not be based on political, cultural or gender ideals. Isn't being human enough?"

We don't live in the world of woulda/shoulda/coulda.

There's no such thing as human rights without legislation. And then you need power to enforce it.

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