Comment by Nessrriinn on April 26, 2012 at 7:30pm

  i would hope people can see past the little things and understand that there's bigger issues.. we can debate the philosophy of multicultarlism or we can see it for what it is.. a coming together of different practises.. some practises can live simultaneously without really imposing itself on the other.. and some need to be abolished..

Comment by SteveInCO on April 26, 2012 at 7:37pm

I'd tend to disagree, Unseen.  There are rights, there are countries and cultures that respect them, and cultures and cultures that don't--to varying degrees.

Comment by matt.clerke on April 26, 2012 at 7:59pm

I have a question: How does one beat their wife "with good intentions"?

Comment by Nessrriinn on April 26, 2012 at 8:07pm

@matt.clerke

a couple of examples would be:

to keep his family in "order"

following 4:34 from the quran..  and other hadiths ..

Comment by Unseen on April 26, 2012 at 9:01pm

@SteveInCO That is the naive view. It falls apart as soon as someone asks, where do rights come from? (answer: legislation) What makes rights real? (answer: the ability, through naked power, to enforce them).

Just as those who win the war get to write history, those with the guns get to say what's a right and what's not.

Comment by Unseen on April 26, 2012 at 9:05pm

@matt.clerke Answer: delusionally.

Comment by Nessrriinn on April 26, 2012 at 9:13pm

women's rights did not come about because the women had machine guns or took up arms..  just like our morality has evolved, our laws have changed, ~cultures, traditions, especially those encouraged by religion, need to be looked at

there are basic freedoms that everyone should have.. and if a culture tramples on those basic rights, then it's those particular practises that should be examined.

Comment by Unseen on April 26, 2012 at 9:25pm

@Nessrriinn "women's rights did not come about because the women had machine guns or took up arms"

But if they don't have rights, they are prisoners of the most powerful side: the side that wants them to have them or the side that doesn't. The power aspect of rights is unavoidable.

"just like our morality has evolved, our laws have changed, ~cultures, traditions, especially those encouraged by religion, need to be looked at"

They can evolve all they want, but without some way of enforcing rights, there are no rights, and to enforce rights legitimately, you need a framework based on legislation.

"there are basic freedoms that everyone should have.. and if a culture tramples on those basic rights, then it's those particular practises that should be examined"

Without a God to say something is right because he/she says so, and will damn anyone who disobeys, you are stuck with what people are willing to do in a framework of laws. Laws create rights, and that is why I keep going back to legislation. If that government has the power and the will to enforce your rights, then you have rights in a practical sense.

As for "basic freedoms that everyone should have," those are beliefs which will vary from place to place and culture to culture. Just beliefs. No more. All you have to do is look around to see how women are treated, or expect to be treated, all around the world to see that this is true.

There are no human rights.

Comment by SteveInCO on April 26, 2012 at 9:35pm

Unseen, it's not the naive view.  It's just that no one has ever bothered to explain to you the objective basis of rights.  Unfortunately, I can't quite manage to do it without a huge long essay (which is on my to-do list).

Frankly the notion that rights are arbitrary and purely whateverthehell the local government wants them to be is scary to me.  They exist, a government either recognizes them or it doesn't.  That's pretty much what the Declaration of Independence says, and I agree with that.  Your stance leaves us with no philosophical underpinning for any sort of freedom.  I would be very worried if you were in political power.

Comment by Unseen on April 26, 2012 at 9:39pm

That's an easy cop out. I have taught philosophy and the STUDENTS in a good philosophy class would be wiping the floor with the idea of objective rights apart from a deity.

Sure, arbitrary rights are scary, but so is living without a god to tell you what he wants you to do.

You refer to the Declaration of Independence (a document which refers to God) and also, I would assume (though you didn't say so) to The Constitution (another document with references to God). God aside, notice that both are LEGISLATION.

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