Comment by The Civilizationalist on February 13, 2014 at 1:03pm

Just because you're an atheist doesn't also mean that you have to be willfully intransigent.

1. Promiscuity is risky. Even if conception does not take place, even if you don't contract STDs, it certainly contributes to an increase in the divorce rate. [http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1741-3737.2003.00444.x...]. The risks of STDs are also high, even with condom usage - 26.8% of women have HPVs [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_papillomavirus#United_States_of_...]

2. There is no scientific basis to believe that life begins at delivery. The only logical, scientific conclusion possible is that life begins at conception.

Comment by kris feenstra on February 13, 2014 at 2:08pm

1. Promiscuity is risky.

The picture isn't encouraging promiscuity any more than it is encouraging canoeists to paddle out into stormy waters and rock the boat. Just because an argument is presented against one extreme does not mean that the opposite extreme is being advocated by default.

2. There is no scientific basis to believe that life begins at delivery. The only logical, scientific conclusion possible is that life begins at conception.

No, science does not agree. Life begins at abiogenesis, but 'life' is not the threshold we are looking for in the abortion debate. 

Comment by Gregg R Thomas on February 13, 2014 at 2:28pm

"The only logical, scientific conclusion possible is that life begins at conception."

Life began at Abiogenesis, Rights of Citizenship begin at birth.

The State and others do not own another human being's cells (no matter how they are organized).

Comment by The Civilizationalist on February 13, 2014 at 2:49pm

The typical Hegelian dialectic is that there are two extreme positions, and people have to thrash it out between each other, so that the truth, which is assumed to be somewhere in the middle will emerge. The Hegelian dialectic is total BS.

Truth is objective, not subjective. We have a moral obligation to seek the truth no matter how much it hurts our ego.

When engaged in a honest debate, a person must not try to win; he must rather try to seek the truth. In a honest debate, at the end, the truth wins. In a Hegelian dialectic, one of the debators win.

The truth is that monogamous marital unions are the bedrock of civilizations. That is not an extreme position; that is a simple truth.

"Life begins at abiogenesis" - That's a red herring, we're not talking about the origin of the earliest forms of life.

" 'life' is not the threshold we are looking for in the abortion debate." - This sort of disingenuous rationalization to soothe your ego should be avoided in seeking the truth.

I'm not going to argue anymore because you're not engaging in a debate; you're engaging in a Hegelian dialectic.

Comment by Reg The Fronkey Farmer on February 13, 2014 at 3:06pm

The truth is that monogamous marital unions are the bedrock of civilizations. That is not an extreme position; that is a simple truth.

No, that is your subjective opinion.

Comment by kris feenstra on February 13, 2014 at 3:11pm

The typical Hegelian dialectic is that there are two extreme positions, and people have to thrash it out between each other...

I have not adopted an extreme position. This has no relevance to what I said. You cannot simply set up extremist straw men and claim victory by dismissing a method no one is using.

"Life begins at abiogenesis" - That's a red herring, we're not talking about the origin of the earliest forms of life.

It's not a red herring. From the earliest forms of life to what we have now is all one continuous chain of life. There is never a break between the birth of individuals in which there is non-life. 'Life' was your word choice, and it's really not my problem if you don't understand what that word means. We do not legislate on the basis of 'life'. If you want to step into this conversation seriously, you need to use terms correctly and meaningfully, not arbitrarily as it suits your cause.

The truth is that monogamous marital unions are the bedrock of civilizations. That is not an extreme position; that is a simple truth.

There is nothing simple about it and it has almost no relevance to the picture being discussed.

I'm not going to argue anymore because you're not engaging in a debate; you're engaging in a Hegelian dialectic.

What a convenient way to step out of the conversation. It's not true, of course, but it sounds nice.

Comment by Teri G on February 13, 2014 at 3:18pm
Well then...
Comment by Gallup's Mirror on February 13, 2014 at 9:13pm

" 'life' is not the threshold we are looking for in the abortion debate." - This sort of disingenuous rationalization to soothe your ego should be avoided in seeking the truth.

It became disingenuous the moment you used "life" as though it's the basis for what makes us human. The appendix contains more human life than a fetus at 12 weeks which is when most abortions are performed.

Consciousness makes you human. Not your beating heart. Not the shape of your hands. Not the functions of your body. Not that your body is alive. Your death as a human being occurs with the cessation of your higher brain functions and the irreversible end of your consciousness: 'brain death'. Conversely, your life as a human being begins with the commencement of your brain functions and the starting of your consciousness: 'brain life'.

Science has established that the structures of the brain that are required for "fetal awareness of noxious stimuli" do not begin forming until 23 to 30 weeks. It is living human tissue, but without consciousness and a fully-formed nervous system, removing a fetal sack is no more concerning than removing an appendix. (Or it's actually less concerning, since the body is incapable of producing another appendix.) It's incorrect to think of a fetus as 'a baby who just hasn’t been born yet'. It's correct to think of a fetus as a part of the body that will become a baby, if the body is allowed to continue the process.

Scientific studies of fetal consciousness, and statistics which show 98% of abortions occur in the first trimester, prove that in reality there is virtually no ethical dilemma associated with having an abortion. At least, no more than is involved with having a tooth pulled.

Life is not the threshold. Human life is the threshold and that begins with consciousness, not conception.

Comment by Teri G on February 14, 2014 at 2:53am

Very interesting read Gallup!

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